Extinction Rebellion
- Thread starter Jeremiah18.17
- Start date
I just got back from having another look. Several sites were being cleared at once, loads of cops, much more like what I expected to see on Monday night. It wasn't taking long either, I think it's all gone now except for a few tents in St James Park, with a few hundred people in Whitehall and Trafalgar Square which is rammed with tents with roads still blocked at the bottom of the square. There were a few huddles here and there round Parliament Square but they were pretty much surrounded. Maybe they'll manage to retake some space overnight but I can't help thinking this tactic has run it's course. The old bill weren't really going in hard, its just a question of them getting the numbers in place and whatever kit they need and mopping it up at their own pace. Bit of a pain in the arse for them I suppose, but not a threat, more just quite laborious. I think if XR could dial down the passivity just a little bit, getting in copper's ways (non violently by all means if they want) when they haul someone off rather than parting the crowd and clapping them through, then they could have held onto the sites a lot lot longer.
But there's no anger there. The younger folk in Trafalgar Square looked like they were having a great time, and fair play to them, it's desperately in need of a bar, and all felt a bit Christian rock band at times, but it had a party feel to it. The older lot though seem charactised by despair and angst. There's a semi religious element to a lot of it, not in the hippy acid tinged Earth Mother way of the past, but more like this is an act of penance in the hope of redemption for the lifestyles they lead. It's a movement that is as anatagonistic to itself as it is the police, capital and the state. The middle classes falling on their swords, or rather being minorly inconvenienced by the threat of low level criminal sanctions. And ultimately calling on the state to save them from themselves. Which the state won;t do obviously. There desperately needs to be a joining up of the very real suffering people are facing now, and the reasons for climate change. That banner is a refreshing start, because without some genuine anger, and a desire to force change not ask for it, then I don't really see much progress being made. Which is not to undermine everything XR have achieved, the conversation is happening, but without the emergence of real anger and real antagonism, then I suspect its diminishing returns from here on. The problem is when the movement is so stuffed to the gills with toffs they're cheering Boris Johnson's fucking dad and wearing t shirts boasting of being CEOs not crusties then it's going to be very difficult to get the guns pointing in the right direction.
But there's no anger there. The younger folk in Trafalgar Square looked like they were having a great time, and fair play to them, it's desperately in need of a bar, and all felt a bit Christian rock band at times, but it had a party feel to it. The older lot though seem charactised by despair and angst. There's a semi religious element to a lot of it, not in the hippy acid tinged Earth Mother way of the past, but more like this is an act of penance in the hope of redemption for the lifestyles they lead. It's a movement that is as anatagonistic to itself as it is the police, capital and the state. The middle classes falling on their swords, or rather being minorly inconvenienced by the threat of low level criminal sanctions. And ultimately calling on the state to save them from themselves. Which the state won;t do obviously. There desperately needs to be a joining up of the very real suffering people are facing now, and the reasons for climate change. That banner is a refreshing start, because without some genuine anger, and a desire to force change not ask for it, then I don't really see much progress being made. Which is not to undermine everything XR have achieved, the conversation is happening, but without the emergence of real anger and real antagonism, then I suspect its diminishing returns from here on. The problem is when the movement is so stuffed to the gills with toffs they're cheering Boris Johnson's fucking dad and wearing t shirts boasting of being CEOs not crusties then it's going to be very difficult to get the guns pointing in the right direction.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I must say the "Red Brigade" I've seen but can't really get the point of them. They mean well but aren't representative of all of XR.
Who are a mixed bunch.
Thing is making an exhibition of oneself gets media attention.
I think its a pity that XR didn't get one of the bridges as I think they put a lot of planning into that. Would have been a good showcase for XR.
Who are a mixed bunch.
Thing is making an exhibition of oneself gets media attention.
I think its a pity that XR didn't get one of the bridges as I think they put a lot of planning into that. Would have been a good showcase for XR.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Agree with a lot of what smokedout has posted.
I'm trying to remember the first XR rebellion and now. This time the police are much more heavy handed.
I remember the first XR occupation and the police took ages to talk to an XR then almost reluctantly pick them up and take them off to police van.
This time around I have seen police drop the niceties and just get on with arresting or chucking protestors out the way.
It comes across as the police have lost their patience.
I also feel in London there is not so much sympathy for the protestors as first time around.
Ive heard people say they have made their point so can they stop blocking the roads.
First time I felt it was different public reaction.
Also not having a bridge has made a difference.
I remember Oxford Street and Waterloo. People liked it because it was fun. They could go their after work or lunchtimes.
Fun is important it helped to get the message across.
This time with the police cracking down on protestors its become more like a hard fought protest.
I'm not criticisng XR here. Its that this time its different. Repeating the success of the first protest was a tall order.
I'm trying to remember the first XR rebellion and now. This time the police are much more heavy handed.
I remember the first XR occupation and the police took ages to talk to an XR then almost reluctantly pick them up and take them off to police van.
This time around I have seen police drop the niceties and just get on with arresting or chucking protestors out the way.
It comes across as the police have lost their patience.
I also feel in London there is not so much sympathy for the protestors as first time around.
Ive heard people say they have made their point so can they stop blocking the roads.
First time I felt it was different public reaction.
Also not having a bridge has made a difference.
I remember Oxford Street and Waterloo. People liked it because it was fun. They could go their after work or lunchtimes.
Fun is important it helped to get the message across.
This time with the police cracking down on protestors its become more like a hard fought protest.
I'm not criticisng XR here. Its that this time its different. Repeating the success of the first protest was a tall order.
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Yeah when I said not going in that hard I meant not suited up and cracking skulls. I'd say their mood was a kind of determined impatience, they weren't going to give any ground but they weren't fired up and looking to hurt people either. Wouldn't be surprised to see that side of tem if the city airport action goes off tomorrow though.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
Sorry, was at the pub then pictures so didn't see it till too late and also wasn't sure. Glad to see the answers came in because I was wondering as well.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
Yeah that's what I saw at MOD and Whitehall today, very business like, methodical and one at a time.
They know they can just pick them up and carry them off one by one without any hassle from onlookers so no big rush. Overtimetastic.
Miss-Shelf
I'll meet you further on up the road
XR Scotland have been much more vocal about positioning the climate crisis in a larger perspective and stressing justice and solidarity
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Good write up, and you've said a few things that I was thinking on, specifically the lack of anger which is really quite strange to see, especially when, as you say, it's been replaced with a very odd slightly religious grief. I also agree I think this phase of the struggle is over, the thing now will be do they just keep repeating it with ever diminishing returns, or can they adapt and find new avenues of attack?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
And how the actual fuck can Johnson's dad talk there and get cheered rather than bottled off stage?
I do want to have more hope and optimism for XR, but I do feel like they have a reasonable amount of potential to be actually more of a political problem than benefit, and quite a lot of what I heard and saw there didn't make me feel that this would be a huge leap.
I do want to have more hope and optimism for XR, but I do feel like they have a reasonable amount of potential to be actually more of a political problem than benefit, and quite a lot of what I heard and saw there didn't make me feel that this would be a huge leap.
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chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I think there's a number of possible paths they can take based on where they are now and the history of those that went before:
(In rough order of likelihood)
Obviously I think option 4 is the way to go, but I just don't think they have the social base to do that
(In rough order of likelihood)
- Repeat and fade (like Stop the War, summit hopping and so many others before them)
- Specialise in high profile, professional activism with broad, but passive, support (like Greenpeace)
- Become a permanent fixture of moralist minority activism (like CND or Animal rights)
- Become a rooted, normative movement of defiance in local communities (like the Poll Tax)
- Go "underground" and concentrate on stuff like the airport drones (like the ALF/ELF etc.)
Obviously I think option 4 is the way to go, but I just don't think they have the social base to do that
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I would say 3 is the most likely. But what do I know really.I think there's a number of possible paths they can take based on where they are now and the history of those that went before:
(In rough order of likelihood)
- Repeat and fade (like Stop the War, summit hopping and so many others before them)
- Specialise in high profile, professional activism with broad, but passive, support (like Greenpeace)
- Become a permanent fixture of moralist minority activism (like CND or Animal rights)
- Become a rooted, normative movement of defiance in local communities (like the Poll Tax)
- Go "underground" and concentrate on stuff like the airport drones (like the ALF/ELF etc.)
Obviously I think option 4 is the way to go, but I just don't think they have the social base to do that
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I think there's a number of possible paths they can take based on where they are now and the history of those that went before:
(In rough order of likelihood)
- Repeat and fade (like Stop the War, summit hopping and so many others before them)
- Specialise in high profile, professional activism with broad, but passive, support (like Greenpeace)
- Become a permanent fixture of moralist minority activism (like CND or Animal rights)
- Become a rooted, normative movement of defiance in local communities (like the Poll Tax)
- Go "underground" and concentrate on stuff like the airport drones (like the ALF/ELF etc.)
Obviously I think option 4 is the way to go, but I just don't think they have the social base to do that
I guess a variation of (2) would be some move into parliamentary politics, standing candidates on their demands.
I expect we're of the same opinion politically chilango about the most politically useful bases for struggle being work and neighborhood 90% of the time, but one of the problems with this (4) is the problem we all face which is the nature of where and how we live today, the fragmentation of communities and transient nature of where many of us live - and that's a fucking hard one to overcome.
Anyway, given how bonkers and unpredictable the world feels at the moment, they'll probably end up as option (16) An army of genetically engineered monkeys flying drones delivering non-violent hand grenades to MPs or something.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
One of the 'advantages' that XR and climate stuff has though is there's no 'end point' for activity on climate change as there is for most campaigns and issues when a project gets built or a law gets passed etc etc.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I actually think that's a disadvantage though.
One of the strengths of the first period of '90s activism was concrete, achievable goals. Even when losing having specific target - both in terms of stopping a particular project and in terms of companies and individuals as the "enemy" - provided focus and momentum for tactics/strategy and activists.
Once we broadened out to "capitalism" it was much harder to be sustainable... and we were doing that from a position of relative strength.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Maybe we're both a bit right!?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Probably. Though there is a chance I'm just wrong
It wouldn't be the first time.....
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
That was partly due to a mismatch in terms of capitalism and our methods of attack though right? Fueled partly by a not great understanding of what capitalism is?
As for concrete goals, they have de-carbonize by 2025. Given the right discussions it isn't a big leap to a position for this to be unobtainable under capitalism, so let's get rid of capitalism? Restructure society along the lines of production for need with ecological and carbon considerations at the forefront of this restructuring? People's (fuck all that citizen shit) assemblies based in workplaces and neighborhoods to work this transition out? And direct action to start doing it now?
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
Within XR there’s a lot of talk about our systems currently being based around a necessity for endless economic growth (which is all that capitalism has when the rich are out for a bigger and bigger take).
Imo it’s a bit like the ‘non-violence’ thing in that more meaningful discussions are going on in the background than their PR would imply.
Imo it’s a bit like the ‘non-violence’ thing in that more meaningful discussions are going on in the background than their PR would imply.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
That's the tricky balance isn't it?
Goals that are perceived as obtainable, and those that are not. Given that "it is easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism" that is a big leap to make in everyday life.
newbie
undisambiguated
really, in 2019 you want to root in geographic communities? You've even spelt in American as you argue the point on social media. This is a rebellion that happening simultaneously in cities and towns all over the world. Geographic community isn't the future.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
but that's equally a disadvantage. something like the poll tax, you're dealing with a human issue which will change sooner or later. with climate change you're dealing with something that even if 90% of co2 or ch4 was removed from the atmosphere before lunchtime you're still going to see some very nasty effects for years to come. with the poll tax you can duck in and duck out of the movement. with climate change it's coming to get you whether you are carbon positive, carbon negative or carbon neutral. i wonder what effect this will have on activists' mental health and rates of burnout
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it is and it isn't. everything is connected, but things which are closer together are more closely connected. when london floods will you be relying on people in manitoba or malaysia or people in london to help you? if you can only network with people on the other side of the world and have no interaction with people in this country what is your activism worth?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
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