Extinction Rebellion

[Gramsci]

A few observations on my time on Waterloo Bridge last night. ( see my photos above).

This was an uplifting experience. This was ordinary XR people in action.

I had realised they were having problems last night so went up there. Got there by 11pm. South side of bridge blocked so went over Blackfriars to the North Side and got up the steps there.

XR on bridge told me that Police had blocked both ends for two hours. Stopping water supplies coming in. This was kettling. For legal reasons as this was peaceful protest they had to stop this. The Met can't kettle peaceful protest. Reason why I managed to get in on North end of bridge.

Once on the bridge saw that protestors still there. The lorry was surrounded by police. They had got the people chained to bottom of truck off but not the two on roof.

Took four hours to get them off the roof of the lorry. The Police got specialist team in.

This was all watched by the hawk eyed legal observers. They were taking notes and watching if the police were working humanely and safely.

Looked to me that the specialist poice they used had worked on road protests.

They had all the equipment. Took four hours as it looked to me like a senior cop had to ok every move.

I was really impressed by the voluntary legal observers. Had chat with one. This isnt glamourous job. But in situations like this all important.

The other people on the bridge were giving vocal support to the two guys chained to roof of the lorry.

Music was important part of all this. Several guys were leading songs giving support to the people on top of the lorry.

It was all very peaceful and self disciplined. Anyone getting to argumentative with cops was told to back off.

Whatever people think of NVA what I saw on Waterloo Bridge was very good example of how self disciplined XR protestors are. No leaders telling them what to do at 1am in morning when mainstream media were tucked up in bed.

I found the whole experience heartwarming and moving. The care shown to the guys on the roof off of the lorry was moving.

I think even the cops found it disconcerting.

In the case of London and this country NVA imo works.

It also appears to me to be genuinely held by XR rank and file. Not imposed reluctantly on them from above.

I know it can appear as hippy. But the young people I saw - for them hippies are ancient history.

So from my experience last night I think there is a lot to be said for the leading lights of XR strategy.

 

[kenny g]

A few observations on my time on Waterloo Bridge last night. ( see my photos above).

This was an uplifting experience. This was ordinary XR people in action.

Have to agree. I have always been deeply suspicious of NVDA but what I have seen over the past few days has truly moved. Brought tears to my eyes at points. Not sure where it leads but what it has done over the past few days speaks for itself.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

A few observations on my time on Waterloo Bridge last night. ( see my photos above).

This was an uplifting experience. This was ordinary XR people in action.

I had realised they were having problems last night so went up there. Got there by 11pm. South side of bridge blocked so went over Blackfriars to the North Side and got up the steps there.

XR on bridge told me that Police had blocked both ends for two hours. Stopping water supplies coming in. This was kettling. For legal reasons as this was peaceful protest they had to stop this. The Met can't kettle peaceful protest. Reason why I managed to get in on North end of bridge.

Once on the bridge saw that protestors still there. The lorry was surrounded by police. They had got the people chained to bottom of truck off but not the two on roof.

Took four hours to get them off the roof of the lorry. The Police got specialist team in.

This was all watched by the hawk eyed legal observers. They were taking notes and watching if the police were working humanely and safely.

Looked to me that the specialist poice they used had worked on road protests.

They had all the equipment. Took four hours as it looked to me like a senior cop had to ok every move.

I was really impressed by the voluntary legal observers. Had chat with one. This isnt glamourous job. But in situations like this all important.

The other people on the bridge were giving vocal support to the two guys chained to roof of the lorry.

Music was important part of all this. Several guys were leading songs giving support to the people on top of the lorry.

It was all very peaceful and self disciplined. Anyone getting to argumentative with cops was told to back off.

Whatever people think of NVA what I saw on Waterloo Bridge was very good example of how self disciplined XR protestors are. No leaders telling them what to do at 1am in morning when mainstream media were tucked up in bed.

I found the whole experience heartwarming and moving. The care shown to the guys on the roof off of the lorry was moving.

I think even the cops found it disconcerting.

In the case of London and this country NVA imo works.

It also appears to me to be genuinely held by XR rank and file. Not imposed reluctantly on them from above.

I know it can appear as hippy. But the young people I saw - for them hippies are ancient history

So from my experience last night I think there is a lot to be said for the leading lights of XR strategy.

This reflects what I've seen this week in Parliament Square

Gramsci thank you for your informative posts and photos this week and for your support on the ground. Having people turn up to offer support during arrests has been incredible

 

[cupid_stunt]

Bit gutted that both Parliament Square & Waterloo Bridge have been cleared, but it had to happen at some point, somewhat surprised it took as long as it did, so well done to all involved.

It has certainly grabbed the headlines, and seems to have got people talking about climate change, IME it's been interesting that whilst most people I've seen over the last few days were aware of climate change, a lot were not aware of just how bad things are getting & how urgent further action is required to limit the impact. There's a lot more people well-informed now than before, which can only be good.

But, as an exercise in getting politicians to step-up and actually do more, I am not sure it will have much, if any, impact.

The UK is actually doing a lot more than many countries, but needs to do more, however our impact on the environment is tiny compared to the likes of China and the continued clearing of the rain forests, and I struggle to see how pressure is likely to be brought on other countries to take action.

And, what next for Extinction Rebellion? This has been a remarkable protest, that took the authorities by surprise, but the cops have now worked out their tactics, and I doubt similar protests will be allowed to drag-on for so long. I hope Extinction Rebellion hasn't reached it's peak, I hope they find ways of keeping the pressure on, just not sure how they will.

 

[8ball]

I hope Extinction Rebellion hasn't reached it's peak, I hope they find ways of keeping the pressure on, just not sure how they will.

I think they'll have a few more tricks up their sleeves.
Also, I think having got the police to haul them all off on a Bank Holiday weekend could be considered something of a victory.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I think they'll have a few more tricks up their sleeves.

I am sure they have, just not sure anything will top the action of this last week, it was a class act, and it's going to be very hard to trump that.

Mind you, their crowd funding page has almost reached £350k now, so they have a decent war chest!

 

[Brainaddict]

I think it's really showed up the lack of ambition/capacity of many left climate activists, who like many activists have somewhat self-ghetto-ised with their political jargon* and their tactics. I've been frustrated with the attack on XR's tactics from left activists, when really their tactics have been their great success, whatever theoretical critiques you might have of them.

The main issue I have with XR at this point - apart from the naive positions on how power works - is that it doesn't feel like the leadership is really accountable. This leaves them vulnerable to (a) stupid tactical/strategic decisions and (b) their leaders launching themselves into positions of influence while the base is left out of the picture. My feeling is that unaccountable power is likely to end badly, and over the long term will almost certainly end badly.

*If you want an example of what I mean by this, compare the slogan 'Capitalism is crisis' with the slogan 'Rebel for life', in particular compare which of them is more legible to a non-initiate.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it's really showed up the lack of ambition/capacity of many left climate activists, who like many activists have somewhat self-ghetto-ised with their political jargon* and their tactics. I've been frustrated with the attack on XR's tactics from left activists, when really their tactics have been their great success, whatever theoretical critiques you might have of them.

The main issue I have with XR at this point - apart from the naive positions on how power works - is that it doesn't feel like the leadership is really accountable. This leaves them vulnerable to (a) stupid tactical/strategic decisions and (b) their leaders launching themselves into positions of influence while the base is left out of the picture. My feeling is that unaccountable power is likely to end badly, and over the long term will almost certainly end badly.

*If you want an example of what I mean by this, compare the slogan 'Capitalism is crisis' with the slogan 'Rebel for life', in particular compare which of them is more legible to a non-initiate.

Tbh we've only seen a couple of variations on the get lots of people together theme, get lots of people together and march, and get lots of people together and block stuff. As for strategy it'd be more generous to flit over that than examine it. The notion, as per reports, that xr believe the government might enter into negotiations when tbh the state's not really flexed its muscles is ludicrous. I don't know what they hope to do next but I suspect there'll be a division at some point between those who see a continuation of nvda as the way to go and those more open to a diversity of tactics

 

[8ball]

Tbh we've only seen a couple of variations on the get lots of people together theme, get lots of people together and march, and get lots of people together and block stuff. As for strategy it'd be more generous to flit over that than examine it. The notion, as per reports, that xr believe the government might enter into negotiations when tbh the state's not really flexed its muscles is ludicrous. I don't know what they hope to do next but I suspect there'll be a division at some point between those who see a continuation of nvda as the way to go and those more open to a diversity of tactics

I guess, like me, you suspect this division may occur shortly after their first experience of truncheons.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

The questions raised by Cupid stunt are important. My suggestion would be that the main thing is to globalise this movement as much as possible - which is happening to a certain extent, but largely in the “developed” economies. It must become a movement where those in the front line of climate catastrophe - chiefly in Africa, Asia and South America, but also in the vulnerable and impoverished parts of the “West” begin to have the loudest voices.

I would say that growing the climate strikes (along with serious, widespread direct action on those days) is one of the key ways forward. So, the Fridays For The Future progressively broadening out - and this is an ask to the organised labour movement in particular - as lead ins to a global wave of action on May 24th and then a massive united push for an effective global climate strike on September 27th with accompanying mass action. This would also have the effect of keeping the supposed XR leadership in its place - with focus on the real tasks - generalisation and organisation rather than negotiation from a position of weakness. Actions so far are symbolic. They need to start having a real economic effect and put the question of who has power - and how. No question that this is a big task, too big for the small forces grouped around XR alone.

 

[LDC]

The limits of any movement are going to be a key area for battles as well. If a movement against climate change expands, which it'll have to do if it's going to achieve anything significant, are ER hoping to be the sole umbrella for this activity or will they accept others working in a similar direction but in different ways? (Thinking UK specific here.)

 

[8ball]

The limits of any movement are going to be a key area for battles as well. If a movement against climate change expands, which it'll have to do if it's going to achieve anything significant, are ER hoping to be the sole umbrella for this activity or will they accept others working in a similar direction but in different ways? (Thinking UK specific here.)

Their current structure suggests the latter. They don't seem to be possessive in that sense.

 

[Pickman's model]

It must become a movement where those in the front line of climate catastrophe - chiefly in Africa, Asia and South America, but also in the vulnerable and impoverished parts of the “West” begin to have the loudest voices.

the very people whose voices have always been most successfully muffled. hell, when people in louisiana and florida - whose land is sinking under water - have difficulty being heard, what hope for the arctic peoples etc?

 

[newbie]

I would say that growing the climate strikes (along with serious, widespread direct action on those days) is one of the key ways forward.

What's that going to achieve? Stunts with no real purpose other than publicity can be very effective without producing any tangible change to anything.

Government must tell the truth, must act now and must set up and be led by a Citizens Assembly. Frankly May could give in to all that and nothing much would change. Well, pretend to give in and pass the detail to spin doctors, professional politicians and civil servants, who will dot the i's, cross the t's and bury the whole thing in fudge.

It'd not like the road or fracking protests where there's a distinct outcome: something is either built or stopped. Requesting government should do a bit more of what it's already doing is less clear cut.

I'm afraid I imagine conversation in 2030:
do you remember XR, kipping on the bridge, dancing and chalking pictures, all those fabulous people bringing food, talking to tourists, then locking on and being carted away to Bromley?
Yeah, it was fantastic... did anything come of those protests?
er, dunno, can't remember... but we held the bridge for days!

 

[sunnysidedown]

I see the XR official twitter account is retweeting some XR Business bollocks that has some supporters of it calling themselves climate capitalists.

So a few splits could coming up then.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

What's that going to achieve? Stunts with no real purpose other than publicity can be very effective without producing any tangible change to anything.

Government must tell the truth, must act now and must set up and be led by a Citizens Assembly. Frankly May could give in to all that and nothing much would change. Well, pretend to give in and pass the detail to spin doctors, professional politicians and civil servants, who will dot the i's, cross the t's and bury the whole thing in fudge.

It'd not like the road or fracking protests where there's a distinct outcome: something is either built or stopped. Requesting government should do a bit more of what it's already doing is less clear cut.

I'm afraid I imagine conversation in 2030:
do you remember XR, kipping on the bridge, dancing and chalking pictures, all those fabulous people bringing food, talking to tourists, then locking on and being carted away to Bromley?
Yeah, it was fantastic... did anything come of those protests?
er, dunno, can't remember... but we held the bridge for days!

Hey, I’m with you - the ruling class will always co-opt and neutralise demands wherever they can. The point is, as it has always been - though now with renewed urgency and existential significance- the question of class power and capitalism. The ruling class mouthpieces in various parts of the media - say Adam Boulton or Andrew Pierce on Murdoch’s media in the UK - are refreshingly clear. They would not lose sleep over activists being killed and -implicitly- would rather genocide and the end of human civilisation than they give up their privileged position or lifestyle. I predict that this will become increasingly the case for larger sections of our rulers as things get worse - the Katie Hopkins “let them drown in the Med” approach to refugees and the paramilitaries accosting migrants in behalf of trump on the Southern US border are simply precursors to genocide - canaries in the coal mine.

It is a good sign that people such as the Green Anticapitalist Front (GAF) in UK and the Symbiosis group (involving Black Socialists, DSA Libertarian Socialists and others in the US) are starting to get a hearing, and even some of the mainstream NGOs such as Friends of The Earth are at least adapting their rhetoric to be specifically anticapitalist.

So, from where we are, how do we get to a position where large sections of the international working class see the question of confronting the power of the capitalist system, the oligarchs, their security and propaganda/control systems as an existential one that we must act on collectively?

A first step is for activists in the climate movement to not get carried away by the initial successes in raising demands (of scientists!) but to - as we do when organising industrially - assess the balance of power, map potential allies and organise/propagandise for the size and shape of a movement that can put - non negotiable - demands, and act on them whilst moving towards a situation of *dual power*

 

[Pickman's model]

A first step is for activists in the climate movement to not get carried away by the initial successes in raising demands (of scientists!) but to - as we do when organising industrially - assess the balance of power, map potential allies and organise/propagandise for the size and shape of a movement that can put - non negotiable - demands, and act on them whilst moving towards a situation of *dual power*

at what point do you envisage these demands being formulated?

not to mention that making even non-negotiable demands of a capitalist body means - implicitly - accepting that the cb can meet those demands. that there is a capitalist answer. do you really think there is a solution to all this through capitalism?

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

at what point do you envisage these demands being formulated?

Well, the scientist’s demands/targets/timescales already exist - and are a large part of why Greta Thunberg has been able to spread her movement - they are stark. But as made clear in the mouthpiece of liberal capitalism that is the Observer/GMG this Sunday, these demands “cannot be met” under the current system. They counter-propose 2050 as a target date, which basically is arguing that due to not being able to “inconvenience” Capital, millions must die and we must risk possible runaway climate change.

In terms of that, the goals of socialists/communists/anarchists must be the same as ever, but with renewed energy and focus - seek to organise for dual power and the defeat of the capitalist class. These are not new goals!

 

[Pickman's model]

But as made clear in the mouthpiece of liberal capitalism that is the Observer/GMG this Sunday, these demands “cannot be met” under the current system.

so what do you feel is the point in putting time and effort into raising non-negotiable demands with a system which cannot meet them?

 

[newbie]

So, from where we are, how do we get to a position where large sections of the international working class see the question of confronting the power of the capitalist system, the oligarchs, their security and propaganda/control systems as an existential one that we must act on collectively?

the same way it's been done since people first asked that question, at a guess

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Nether I, not the climate movement made the demands or set the targets, climate scientists did. The assertion from even the “liberal” mouthpieces of the ruling class that these demands cannot be met in the time required under the present capitalist system means that the question of system change is thrown to the fore in a way that socialists, communists and anarchists have been trying to achieve for the last 150 years.....

so what do you feel is the point in putting time and effort into raising non-negotiable demands with a system which cannot meet them?

ets

 

[Pickman's model]

Nether I, not the climate movement made the demands or set the targets, climate scientists did.

yeh but you talk of putting these demands just a couple of posts up. where is the point in putting these non-negotiable demands to a body which cannot meet them, might not the energy be better expended in other pursuits?

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

In aiming for a situation of dual power the “demands” are simply what needs to happen. The aim is to get to the point where it is stated that “this needs to happen”, the current system refuses, and the power of opposing forces is strong enough to enact the changes itself. It should be made clear from the start, as GAF and Symbiosis do, that this is the way to achieve the aims - it is not about pretending that the system will give away its power with a little pressure from well intentioned activists. At the point where opposing forces assert their power above that of the state,the state/Capital seek to reassert their authority and the opposing power, which has been encouraging disaffection and sedition amongst state forces all along, seeks the final defeat of the remaining forces loyal to the old regime.

 

[8ball]

I'm reminded of an interview I was listening to last night where it was mentioned that during the Bush (senior, I think) administration, so quitre a few years back, a group of CEO's wrote to the President asking that legal measures be instituted to mitigate a coming climate disaster, because in the legal framework as exists (existed), they were powerless to do anything but continue making the situation worse.

It was jokingly referred to as a "stop us before we kill again" plea.

Nothing was done, obviously.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Positive action would be workers’ plans for their industries to be transformed along the lines required for meeting the requirements of both the climate and social justice - along the lines of the Lucas plan massively scaled up.
At community level, the transition movement has already been working along these lines, albeit not in an explicitly revolutionary context.

 

[newbie]

Positive action would be workers’ plans for their industries to be transformed along the lines required for meeting the requirements of both the climate and social justice - along the lines of the Lucas plan massively scaled up.
At community level, the transition movement has already been working along these lines, albeit not in an explicitly revolutionary context.

Lucas was in the 1970s, back when the likes of FoE and Greenpeace were not mainstream or establishment friendly but cutting edge radical. Fundamentally little or nothing has happened since, despite their plan being regularly cited.

 

[Pickman's model]

In aiming for a situation of dual power the “demands” are simply what needs to happen. The aim is to get to the point where it is stated that “this needs to happen”, the current system refuses, and the power of opposing forces is strong enough to enact the changes itself. It should be made clear from the start, as GAF and Symbiosis do, that this is the way to achieve the aims - it is not about pretending that the system will give away its power with a little pressure from well intentioned activists. At the point where opposing forces assert their power above that of the state,the state/Capital seek to reassert their authority and the opposing power, which has been encouraging disaffection and sedition amongst state forces all along, seeks the final defeat of the remaining forces loyal to the old regime.

Those who make a revolution halfway only dig their own graves

And I submit aiming for a position of dual power is only making a revolution halfway

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Those who make a revolution halfway only dig their own graves

And I submit aiming for a position of dual power is only making a revolution halfway

As I understand it, aiming for dual power is not aiming for half a revolution, but making explicit the organisation (as the IWW and Syndicalists did in their day and to this day) that is required *before* the revolutionary overthrow of Capital if we are to have workers’ power rather than party dictatorship “on behalf of” the working class, as in the Leninist tradition. It is a precondition, not an end point.

 

[8ball]

Those who make a revolution halfway only dig their own graves
And I submit aiming for a position of dual power is only making a revolution halfway

I think the first stumbling block will be well before anything involving the dynamics of revolutions, and will simply be that the current system is by nature incapable of dealing with the issue.

It's the same basic issue that the Occupy movement ran into.

 

[Pickman's model]

As I understand it, aiming for dual power is not aiming for half a revolution, but making explicit the organisation (as the IWW and Syndicalists did in their day and to this day) that is required *before* the revolutionary overthrow of Capital if we are to have workers’ power rather than party dictatorship “on behalf of” the working class, as in the Leninist tradition. It is a precondition, not an end point.

yes i entirely understand where dual power stands. however, by aiming for a position of dual power (a phrase you've used several times, so obviously not one poor choice of words) you are clearly not preparing for the seizure of power. i don't understand why you're so fixated on 'aiming for a situation of dual power' and not 'aiming for the overthrow of the state' or '... of capitalism' or whatnot.