Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I've answered the questions you posed. If, as appears the case, you wanted different answers then you should have asked different questions. You must have been a great disappointment to your mother.
Extinction Rebellion
- Thread starter Jeremiah18.17
- Start date
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
No.
But that's because of a lack of popular support, not because of violence. The dichotomy between violence and non-violence is, I contend, a false one. Sometimes it is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. I see no value in making a principle out of something that should be a matter of pragmatism.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It is one tool in the box
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Official stance of the organization, or something one person from there said?
I lived in Catford prior to the 2011 riots. Almost every day I would see a young kid, usually black but not always, getting stopped and searched. I got stopped a couple of times myself, both times illegally. After the riots I never saw it happen again.
The state will always pretend it doesn't care about violence, but the truth is nothing makes them brick it more than violent disorder on the streets. We only have to be lucky once after all. And whilst in most cases it will not bring a state to it's knees (until it does) the state will quietly respond and often aquiesce, as happened with the poll tax.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Don't disagree with you, smokedout, but let's not also forget that the main thing that stopped the Poll Tax was mass non payment across the country. Though yes, the rioting was a major nail in the coffin .
Official briefing for people doing support roles, I believe.
heebyjeeby
New Member
Hmm, and you weren't? How much was your education and what did you do with it?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no, no I wasn't. I have no notion how much my education cost - and I don't believe I'm alone in that. What have I done with it? Well, recently I've shown the paucity of your knowledge.
heebyjeeby
New Member
So you are basically a no hoper who was privately educated but can't get a career
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you asked how much my education cost. I have no idea how much the government spent on it. How much did your education cost? From where I'm sitting every single penny was wasted.
Arrests happening at Parliament Square now according to twitter: News about #extinctionrebellion on Twitter
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
15 environmental protesters arrested at civil disobedience campaign in London
I went along this morning (I had a day off) though didn't stay too long. The thing that I found the most unusual was hearing people saying outright "we are going to break the law. We'll get arrested, but we'll continue to break the law until something gets done." It was a very polite rally but there was a lot of anger and determination in the speeches. I had an idea that there would be some actual arrestable civil disobedience, somewhat confirmed when they were handing out bust cards with flyers.
I went along this morning (I had a day off) though didn't stay too long. The thing that I found the most unusual was hearing people saying outright "we are going to break the law. We'll get arrested, but we'll continue to break the law until something gets done." It was a very polite rally but there was a lot of anger and determination in the speeches. I had an idea that there would be some actual arrestable civil disobedience, somewhat confirmed when they were handing out bust cards with flyers.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
BTW maybe I should move this to the UK pol forum? I increasingly feel that the protest forum can make things hard to find in general.
Yeah, that was the most impressive thing for me;they were building on solid analysis of how NVDA succeeds, which is to have people willing to be arrested go and get arrested.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
No, nvda doesn't work like that. It works when the action, generally disruption, succeeds, which is helped by an acceptance of the risk of arrest as an occupational hazard. Going out willing to be nicked and being nicked is as much a measure of success as the auld body count in vietnam
How did this action succeed? What were its aims? I doubt hours in cells was their chosen metric of success
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I would say that the attitude that you are pretty likely to be arrested and that it's all part of the process of what you're doing is very important. As well as preparing you for something that's going to happen eventually, it takes away a lot of the force of the tactics to prevent you acting at all. It's a mindset. If you fight you will get hit; the fear of getting hit may stop you fighting in the first place.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
The other thing that I empathised with was the level of outrage and frustration about how such enormous ecological damage has been done, continues to be done and continues to be ignored. I feel this daily but it mostly just manifests itself in extremely black humour and the tendency to say "well we'll all be fighting in the Thunderdome for beans by then anyway" when anyone brings up long-term politics.
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As I understand it they are not doing "NVDA as shutdown" like, say the digger divers at Newbury, or the lorry surfers at PNR. They are doing NVDA as protest/declaration, so more in a Ghandian or NAACP approach.
I am several days away from my books but when they presented the reasoning it resonated as a reflection of good analysis of the occasions when NVDA has succeeded in changing social mores and achieved a revolutionary change without violence.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I'm not persuaded that has ever happened
Hence my urge to check my references, which I am currently a long way from.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
A friend of mine is interested in this and despite my scepticism I might go along to something with them. News that 'we' have killed off 60% of all animals does have me slightly annoyed and worried for the future, and it's depressing that so few people seem bothered/empowered enough to do anything about it.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I totally appreciate the urgency and passion they express about the ecological disaster we're currently in and that we are blindly hurtling towards a even greater one. I do of course wish there would be some upsurge in mass resistance to it, and I'd even not be too critical if it had shitty politics and was reformist, so long as it worked and on some level gave results.
I fear this that it is more likely to be another distraction from the much harder political work that needs to be done, that while not specifically 'ecological' is more likely to be productive in both its short term methods and longer term possibilities.
I fear this that it is more likely to be another distraction from the much harder political work that needs to be done, that while not specifically 'ecological' is more likely to be productive in both its short term methods and longer term possibilities.
The reporting of that story annoyed me slightly. It was reported as if 60% of animals have been killed. Which isn't the case. The numbers are from the living planet index which show that average population numbers measured by the index have reduced by 60% since 1970. The index measures about 16,000 populations of 4000 vertebrate species.
Still bad of course. But the reporting seemed a bit inaccurate.
Edit: this explains a bit more, although I'm not sure it adds that much light Crunching numbers: the data behind the Living Planet Index
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Delphian Sibyl
Well-Known Member
interesting thread.. why not come along on 17th November and see for yourselves. Yesterday was incredible - you'll be sorry to miss out - and we will miss you all not being there <3 ... and in 10 years time it will be too late. We can try and we refuse to go quietly.XR – Action Begins – eXtinction Rebellion
Delphian Sibyl
Well-Known Member
and follow my FB if you want a personal/messy/ half-cocked but real insight into how I experienced it all.https://www.facebook.com/zoe.hatch.3762
Delphian Sibyl
Well-Known Member
double posted in error
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Why are Extinction Rebellion writing out the parts of social change movements from the past that don't fit your non-violence format? Lots of lauding (for example) the ANC and US civil rights movement as examples of how non-violence alone has worked.
For sure if you think it's essential for the state we're in here and now, but fuck off with this re-writing history nonsense, at best it makes you look like you have a poor understanding of social change, at worst it makes you look like cynical politicos, something you rail against.
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