Ex-chief inspector of schools Sir Chris Woodhead dies

[littlebabyjesus]

When it came to repositioning the schools system, he wasn't a mere functionary he was the key agent of change. What went before wasn't a paradise, the old local authority comp system failed working class kids. However woodhead was at the very heart of the new managerialism, commodification and narrowing of education.

Given that social mobility indices in the UK are considerably down since the changes to the old system, I'm not even sure how true that is.

In order to work, a local authority comp system needs to be allowed open access to all kids. If they are located next to schools that select, they are immediately operating in a skewed environment in which Woodheady things like league tables will show them to be inferior even where they are not.

All selection, even on arbitrary grounds such as religious attendance or champion cabbage-growing, skews the system in favour of the selecting schools. I don't know if Woodhead understood this or not, but either way, he acted to reinforce the inequality.

 

[dylanredefined]

I'd happily believe that Woodhead was a cunt, but lets not spend too long singing the praises of a profession that had, at the time of Woodhead's tenure, only recently been forced to stop beating children.

As he really annoyed teachers it is hard to get for me to get a hate on for him. I really hated my school days.

 

[Wilf]

Given that social mobility indices in the UK are considerably down since the changes to the old system, I'm not even sure how true that is.

In order to work, a local authority comp system needs to be allowed open access to all kids. If they are located next to schools that select, they are immediately operating in a skewed environment in which Woodheady things like league tables will show them to be inferior even where they are not.

All selection, even on arbitrary grounds such as religious attendance or champion cabbage-growing, skews the system in favour of the selecting schools. I don't know if Woodhead understood this or not, but either way, he acted to reinforce the inequality.

In terms of the comp system, from circular 10/64 on it was always politically contested and, as you say, in many areas selection continued. There was relatively little new building and schools weren't big enough to meet the vision of all pupils in the area mixing together. Teacher assumptions and the curriculum - along with, more importantly, the world outside - meant comps only had a modest impact on inequality. But yes, what has gone since has been intentional inequality, using choice and quasi markets to achieve class privilege.

 

[chilango]

I'd happily believe that Woodhead was a cunt, but lets not spend too long singing the praises of a profession that had, at the time of Woodhead's tenure, only recently been forced to stop beating children.

Really? I hope you're just trolling here cos otherwise that's a pretty daft post SpookyFrank

 

[Wilf]

As he really annoyed teachers it is hard to get for me to get a hate on for him.

Must try harder!

 

[Orang Utan]

Really? I hope you're just trolling here cos otherwise that's a pretty daft post SpookyFrank

I think it's just that he was sent to Dotheboys Hall and thinks all teachers are like Wackford Squeers

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd happily believe that Woodhead was a cunt, but lets not spend too long singing the praises of a profession that had, at the time of Woodhead's tenure, only recently been forced to stop beating children.

a mere seven years before.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think it's just that he was sent to Dotheboys Hall and thinks all teachers are like Wackford Squeers

I dunno what any of this is supposed to mean but I went to an ordinary comprehensive school.

I don't think all teachers are evil cartoon characters, but I think it's equally ridiculous to suggest that they're all saints and that every shit thing that has happened to education over the last twenty years has been against the wishes of the teaching profession. Plenty of teachers like the idea of streaming, and are happy to write off the 'difficult' 25% of every year's intake.

Conversely, there must have been plenty of teachers who were opposed to banning corporal punishment.

 

[SpookyFrank]

a mere seven years before.

In the case of some private schools, not until he'd been in the job for five years.

 

[Pickman's model]

In the case of some private schools, not until he'd been in the job for five years.

yes. indicating you hadn't done your homework before making your comments before. incidentally, some private schools were still merrily thrashing until 2003.

 

[SpookyFrank]

yes. indicating you hadn't done your homework before making your comments before. incidentally, some private schools were still merrily thrashing until 2003.

I had previously thought that all corporal punishment in schools was banned in the late 80's. I'm not sure if your reference to schools using corporal punishment as recently as 2003 is supposed to make me less critical of teachers, but oddly enough it doesn't.

 

[killer b]

my god. are you still 14 or something?

 

[emanymton]

He really was not one of the good guys.

The agenda, and philosophy, that he took a great deal of personal responsibility in pushing into education is still wreaking huge, huge damage in schools today.

His death, and the manner of his death, alters this not one jot.

And he had the fucking audacity to write a book about it called class war.

 

[Pickman's model]

I had previously thought that all corporal punishment in schools was banned in the late 80's. I'm not sure if your reference to schools using corporal punishment as recently as 2003 is supposed to make me less critical of teachers, but oddly enough it doesn't.

no i was pointing to you not having done your homework on this point

 

[SpookyFrank]

no i was pointing to you not having done your homework on this point

I apologise for not spending the requisite amount of time studying violence against children.

 

[chilango]

I dunno what any of this is supposed to mean but I went to an ordinary comprehensive school.

I don't think all teachers are evil cartoon characters, but I think it's equally ridiculous to suggest that they're all saints and that every shit thing that has happened to education over the last twenty years has been against the wishes of the teaching profession. Plenty of teachers like the idea of streaming, and are happy to write off the 'difficult' 25% of every year's intake.

Conversely, there must have been plenty of teachers who were opposed to banning corporal punishment.

Have you got anything to back any of this up?

 

[Pickman's model]

I apologise for not spending the requisite amount of time studying violence against children.

you could have spent a minute on eg wikipedia which would have spared your blushes

 

[SpookyFrank]

Have you got anything to back any of this up?

I can back up the fact that I went to comprehensive school. I think they gave me a certificate or something when I left.

As for whether teachers were in favour of corporal punishment, well if they weren't there would have been no need to ban it would there?

Can I back up the fact that not all teachers are saints? Is that a serious question?

 

[chilango]

I'm interested in you backing up the following assertions:

I think it's equally ridiculous to suggest that they're all saints

Has anyone here claimed they are?

and that every shit thing that has happened to education over the last twenty years has been against the wishes of the teaching profession.

Woodhead's reforms were.

Plenty of teachers like the idea of streaming, and are happy to write off the 'difficult' 25% of every year's intake.

What "difficult 25%" ?

I've never heard any teachers talking about such a thing, much less "writing them off"?

Conversely, there must have been plenty of teachers who were opposed to banning corporal punishment.

I've never met a single teacher out of the hundreds I've worked with and known in a wide range of settings who expressed any support whatsoever for corporal punishment.

I'm sure they must exist. They're damn rare though.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What "difficult 25%" ?

I've never heard any teachers talking about such a thing, much less "writing them off"?

I work with kids on a voluntary basis. I've heard plenty of them tell me about how their teachers have written them off. I help them with homework they otherwise wouldn't be able to do because they haven't been taught basic stuff, or because the fact that English isn't their first language hasn't been taken into account. I see report cards that just say 'show up on time' and 'don't cause disruption', and nothing about actually learning anything.

And it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. School don't give a fuck about them, so they don't give a fuck about school. It was the same when I was at school, pre Woodhead, twenty years ago.

Of course teachers don't talk about writing kids off, that doesn't mean they don't do it. Maybe the system they work for forces them to do that, quite possibly it does, but they choose to work for that system so there has to be some responsiblity there somewhere.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I've never met a single teacher out of the hundreds I've worked with and known in a wide range of settings who expressed any support whatsoever for corporal punishment.

I'm sure they must exist. They're damn rare though.

Two teachers were fired from my secondary school for hitting kids while I was there. And they weren't the only ones who hit kids. I doubt they sat around expressing their support for corporal punishment, as that would have made it less likely that they would get away with using it.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I can back up the fact that I went to comprehensive school. I think they gave me a certificate or something when I left.

As for whether teachers were in favour of corporal punishment, well if they weren't there would have been no need to ban it would there?

Can I back up the fact that not all teachers are saints? Is that a serious question?

Your logic is flawed. Many of the opponents of corporal punishment were teachers who because they worked with children, knew that it harmed not only the child but the teacher who was expected to administer it. It was probably banned because Britain was lagging behind other countries and needed to get into the 20th Century.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I dunno what any of this is supposed to mean but I went to an ordinary comprehensive school.

I don't think all teachers are evil cartoon characters, but I think it's equally ridiculous to suggest that they're all saints and that every shit thing that has happened to education over the last twenty years has been against the wishes of the teaching profession. Plenty of teachers like the idea of streaming, and are happy to write off the 'difficult' 25% of every year's intake.

Conversely, there must have been plenty of teachers who were opposed to banning corporal punishment.

Not sure what your point is here. You seem to have some dichotomy of Woodhead vs Teachers set up. My pov comes from outside that fwiw.

I work with kids on a voluntary basis. I've heard plenty of them tell me about how their teachers have written them off. I help them with homework they otherwise wouldn't be able to do because they haven't been taught basic stuff, or because the fact that English isn't their first language hasn't been taken into account. I see report cards that just say 'show up on time' and 'don't cause disruption', and nothing about actually learning anything.

And it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. School don't give a fuck about them, so they don't give a fuck about school. It was the same when I was at school, pre Woodhead, twenty years ago.

Of course teachers don't talk about writing kids off, that doesn't mean they don't do it. Maybe the system they work for forces them to do that, quite possibly it does, but they choose to work for that system so there has to be some responsiblity there somewhere.

And what Woodhead did tackled this? How?

I would argue that his advocacy, and active promotion (for profit), of selection only added to this problem.

 

[killer b]

It's the individual teachers who've failed those kids, and one of the guys who helped create the straitjacket they're forced to work in is a 'decent enough bloke'?

what a bizarre world you live in.

 

[weltweit]

Blunkett was on the news saying that despite that they had disagreements, he thought Woodhead was a brave campaigner for higher standards in education. (words to that effect)

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not sure what your point is here. You seem to have some dichotomy of Woodhead vs Teachers set up. My pov comes from outside that fwiw.

My point is that evil Woodhead vs lovely teachers is a massive oversimplification. I don't think there is a dichotomy, I think the entire education industry is fundamentally rotten and laying that all at the door of one dead bloke lets a shitload of other people off the hook.

And what Woodhead did tackled this? How?

I've said at least four times I'm happy to believe he was a cunt. My only impression of him came from talking to him for two minutes twenty years ago; people who know better than me have since explained what he was about and yeah, he sounds like a cunt.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Seems like someone's having a hamfisted crack at being a British Malcolm!

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's the individual teachers who've failed those kids, and one of the guys who helped create the straitjacket they're forced to work in is a 'decent enough bloke'?

what a bizarre world you live in.

I said that when I met him two deacades ago, as a child, he seemed a decent enough bloke.

 

[killer b]

My point is that evil Woodhead vs lovely teachers is a massive oversimplification. I don't think there is a dichotomy, I think the entire education industry is fundamentally rotten and laying that all at the door of one dead bloke lets a shitload of other people off the hook.

who are you arguing with here?

 

[SpookyFrank]

who are you arguing with here?

Myself, as usual. Only person around here who talks any fucking sense.

But also the people who are saying that everything Woodhead and pals did was universally opposed by all teachers. If that's true, then they weren't opposing it very hard because it all happened anyway.