paulhackett
voiced by strother martin
Same thing they thought when they gave Russia (or any country gets any event) the World Cup.. money.
There'll be another Panorama in 2018..
Euro 2012: Stadiums of hate (panorama)
- Thread starter tar1984
- Start date
Same thing they thought when they gave Russia (or any country gets any event) the World Cup.. money.
There'll be another Panorama in 2018..
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
Plenty of info on this on the 'Official' Euro 2012 Hooligan thread as approved by Pogo
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
As someone who is actually living in Poland at the moment I'd like to add my two pence before people actually buy into this sensationalist piece of claptrap. I've lived 9 months and I fear that the problem is being blown right out of proportion. I see more trouble from British tourists here than any other nationality.
Hooliganism is a problem in Poland, as it is in many other countries, however I expect what The Great Daily Mail Brainwashed Public will think after this bit of "news" is that Poland is a nation of racists. This is not true - the majority of people here are very accommodating and friendly. I fear however that the damage has been done. I worry about how Sun type readers are going to react to the average Pole in the UK.
Let's also not forget that not so long ago it was a major problem in England which has only recently been tackled... I remember similar scenes 10 years ago.
The British have never quite learnt how to shake off the delusion of superiority from the days of the empire, and whilst Poland certainly has issues to address (mainly regarding shit, lazy, corrupt Policing), regretfully, other countries could provide the same analysis of Olympics host city London.
Over the last 12 months in London there have been; 99 murders, 3325 rapes, and 63,655 Residential burglaries. What is considered normal in Britain isn’t acceptable in other countries.
Those in glasses houses surely should think twice before throwing stones. I await with glee similar presentations of "The British" in the Polish and European Media come the Olympics.
I can't comment on Ukraine, but never I expect it's another case of not letting the truth getting in the way of a good story.
You get idiots everywhere. I hope that the Police will be upping their shitty and corrupt game.
Hooliganism is a problem in Poland, as it is in many other countries, however I expect what The Great Daily Mail Brainwashed Public will think after this bit of "news" is that Poland is a nation of racists. This is not true - the majority of people here are very accommodating and friendly. I fear however that the damage has been done. I worry about how Sun type readers are going to react to the average Pole in the UK.
Let's also not forget that not so long ago it was a major problem in England which has only recently been tackled... I remember similar scenes 10 years ago.
The British have never quite learnt how to shake off the delusion of superiority from the days of the empire, and whilst Poland certainly has issues to address (mainly regarding shit, lazy, corrupt Policing), regretfully, other countries could provide the same analysis of Olympics host city London.
Over the last 12 months in London there have been; 99 murders, 3325 rapes, and 63,655 Residential burglaries. What is considered normal in Britain isn’t acceptable in other countries.
Those in glasses houses surely should think twice before throwing stones. I await with glee similar presentations of "The British" in the Polish and European Media come the Olympics.
I can't comment on Ukraine, but never I expect it's another case of not letting the truth getting in the way of a good story.
You get idiots everywhere. I hope that the Police will be upping their shitty and corrupt game.
pppPenguin
Well-Known Member
The reports of the Polish contingent did seem to be just a minority group of people, opposed to the Ukrainians which seemed to be quite a large group including feined ignorance from the police.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
teuchter
je suis teuchter
They did seem to have some quite big banners, though.
The Polish chaps that work for me, including a pair of twins from Wroclaw, where one of the stadiums is, say there isn't a massive problem in Poland, but anecdotally they've heard there is in Ukraine.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Yes I'm so sorry you're right. Now I have my glasses on I can see that all Polish football fans are racist. And in fact... so are all POLES. How silly of me not to notice, I do live here after all.
love detective
there's no love too small
Yes I'm so sorry you're right. Now I have my glasses on I can see that all Polish football fans are racist. And in fact... so are all POLES. How silly of me not to notice, I do live here after all.
There is quite a deep rooted cultural anti-semitism in poland though - it may be expressed in an extreme and marginal form through some of the ultras, but it exists in a far more widespread way across polish society, albeit fairly latently - a lot of casual racism as well
Saying that though, i've been in every city that is hosting games in Euro 2012 across both Poland & Ukraine and in comparison to Ukraine (especially the eastern/russian part), Poland comes across as a bunch of of guardian reading do gooder liberals
He won't be grinning tomorrow
He won't be grinning tomorrow, now that they're shitting themselves about the impact the publicity will have on attendance at the games. Little shit.
He won't be grinning tomorrow, now that they're shitting themselves about the impact the publicity will have on attendance at the games. Little shit.
ska invita
back on the other side
Football hooliganism in Poland definitely became pronounced after the fall of communism, which hit people hard as prices went up and wages didnt. That said even before the end of communism there was armed tension on estates between skinheads, metal heads and the third crew on the block, depeche mode fans (nonviolent)!! IIRC
Theres a feature on this in the current issue of (new?) antifascist mag Hope Not Hate, which pretty much said exactly what Panorama said, but online there is also this, with regular updates: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick
pppPenguin
Well-Known Member
They did. Also the train station had a nice welcome banner painted on the wall.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Re: Anti-Semitism in Poland.
I'd agree about the "cultural" anti-Semitism, although from what I observe day to day it's slowly being eroded away. While still fairly prevalent in my mother's generation (mum's from Hungary - and she can be just as
), from what I've experienced the younger generation (age 35 or lower) certainly couldn't give two monkeys about "the jews this... and the jews that..." most of them think it's a load of nonsense and are far more concerned with modern politics, ACTA etc - they are a generation of information and knowledge. In fact the class of 14 year olds that I teach recently shut up one of their peers, when he said something a little distasteful in the classroom. I didn't even need to intervene - I was so proud of them.
Change takes time. But I was deeply upset at the Panorama report. It was totally without any historical base and massively over egged. Seems like the Poles are fighting an uphill struggle.
pppPenguin
Well-Known Member
England are playing in Ukraine.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
But they're based in Krakow - Poland.
pppPenguin
Well-Known Member
True. I guess the trouble just came across as so much more extreme in Ukraine. Different level shit.
ska invita
back on the other side
Thats all sort of true, but as you say its like England was in the past, and that was a problem, just as it is a problem in Poland and needs stamping out. Anti-semitism has a foothold in Poland not just on the terraces but through Catholic radio like Radio Marja - I would say anecdotally antisemitism in Poland has increased in the last 20 years - its not a good trend. No one is throwing stones, just showing what has happened. Your post is slightly toned with 'no need to go on about it, Sun readers will get the wrong impression etc. No, name and shame, great that it was on prime time TV, and lets hope a similarly critical attitude arises in Poland itself. I didnt find it claptrap or sensationalist.
ska invita
back on the other side
Again, kind of true, but it depends who you knowRe: Anti-Semitism in Poland.
I'd agree about the "cultural" anti-Semitism, although from what I observe day to day it's slowly being eroded away. While still fairly prevalent in my mother's generation (mum's from Hungary - and she can be just as
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purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Ross Kemp's programme on this exact same issue was good because it in part went into that context you mention, SBL. He speculated about the extreme poverty and unemployment and various other factors being a breeding ground for far right views in more detail.
ska invita
back on the other side
and dont forget religion
youngian
Well-Known Member
How long has Danny Dyer been producing Panorama?
You can find firms like that all over Europe. The jew baiting was reminscent of Feynoord and Ajax, but never remember much hassle going to the European cup in Holland and Belgium, except the usual English twats who think its still 1942.
You can find firms like that all over Europe. The jew baiting was reminscent of Feynoord and Ajax, but never remember much hassle going to the European cup in Holland and Belgium, except the usual English twats who think its still 1942.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Yes I'm so sorry you're right. Now I have my glasses on I can see that all Polish football fans are racist. And in fact... so are all POLES. How silly of me not to notice, I do live here after all.
It's ok. Your anecdotes have convinced me that there is no racism in Poland anywhere, especially not amomgst football fans.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Funny how I've managed to convince you of something I never actually said. Show me where I've said racism doesn't exist in Poland??
What I said was a) Hooliganism is a problem in Poland
b) The main problem is corrupt policing
c) The programmed over-egged the whole "racism in Poland" thing and pretty much painted all football fans and poles to be racist thugs - which is sensationalist rubbish and not true.
d) The UK could easily be painted in the same way by European media re:riots and crime stats : it's not safe, all Brits are murdering thugs, but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story....
So, here's a pair of reading glasses. I think you might need them.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
For those interested. Here's the Polish reaction. http://www.tvn24.pl/-1,1745949,0,1,...anglicy-obawiaja-sie-euro-2012,wiadomosc.html
And some comments:
http://www.tvn24.pl/1,251,8,96328566,238121314,11896694,0,forum.html
You'll have to translate the page. The comments are particularly interesting.
And some comments:
http://www.tvn24.pl/1,251,8,96328566,238121314,11896694,0,forum.html
You'll have to translate the page. The comments are particularly interesting.
With respect, you are (i believe) an ethnic, white Pole. I'm not sure you're best placed to judge whether racism exists in your country. I'd take the word of an African footballer living there or a group of Indian students studying there over yours.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
I'm ethnically British/Hungarian. Last weekend I had a Muslim friend come and stay, I've had Greek friends come and stay. No problems... so far. Take the word of whoever you want. But don't take the word of the shit-stirring media.
TBH, when it comes to Poland I'm more worried about LBGT issues, women's rights, and the total grip that the Catholic Church has on the vast majority of the population.
Dhimmi
Half Man Half HobNob
It was a miserable viewing experience.
To be fair the programme did make a point of claiming how most Poles are happy to get along with folk, with the footy firms being the sad exception. Their Police did seem to be useless, even the riot cops took a kicking. Even though the refs could do something as expressed by UeFA I can't see them having the balls, I doubt they'd get out of the ground without grief.
Here's a vid to take the foul taste out of your eyes;
To be fair the programme did make a point of claiming how most Poles are happy to get along with folk, with the footy firms being the sad exception. Their Police did seem to be useless, even the riot cops took a kicking. Even though the refs could do something as expressed by UeFA I can't see them having the balls, I doubt they'd get out of the ground without grief.
Here's a vid to take the foul taste out of your eyes;
