Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
The share price has already taken a massive hit. What Boeing does next will determine how quickly it recovers.
Ethiopian Airlines 737 crashes on way to Kenya 157 onboard.
- Thread starter MrSki
- Start date
T & P
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Christ, every day new and more disturbing revelations regarding the certificiation/ entry into service of the MAX appear. Such as
- Two security systems that would have alerted flight crews of malfunctions with the A0A sensor or the MCAS did not come as standard with the new planes, but were offered as (payable) options to the airlines who ordered the MAX.
- The ONLY training 737 pilots transitioning to the MAX had to (or were offered to) do consisted of a self-administered 53-minute tutorial course playable on their iPads. And of course, there was no mention of the existence of MCAS, let alone instrucitons on how to deal with it if needed.
- Two security systems that would have alerted flight crews of malfunctions with the A0A sensor or the MCAS did not come as standard with the new planes, but were offered as (payable) options to the airlines who ordered the MAX.
- The ONLY training 737 pilots transitioning to the MAX had to (or were offered to) do consisted of a self-administered 53-minute tutorial course playable on their iPads. And of course, there was no mention of the existence of MCAS, let alone instrucitons on how to deal with it if needed.
editor
hiraethified
Probably not as a company, but whoever made the choice to hide the problems (hopefully) is, and they bloody well deserve it.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Clearly there is a fault with this aircraft. IF Boeing covered it up in anyway then they are liable for all the deaths (338?). I can see no reason why a US jury wouldn’t go for punitive damages of $1bn a head. Boeing would still survive that, but it would hurt.
There also needs to be some serious jail time for every single person involved here. This ain’t VW worming away about emissions, this is looking like corporate manslaughter on a grand scale by employees of Boeing and the FAA.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Let's face it, this is pretty much everything anyone who was/is ever scared of flying feared. You put your reliance in the plane working and the pilots being able to make it work. Both of these conditions weren't met.
Outrageous. And for once that's not hyperbole.
Outrageous. And for once that's not hyperbole.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Yep, Frau Bahn is petrified of flying, she did Virgin's fear of flying course and part of that went in to detail about safety and how avoiding airlines in certain parts of the world could be a good idea, but that in Europe and the US safety is everything and you can fly with confidence.
All shattered.
Yossarian
⏭️
Another 737 Max had to make an emergency landing due to engine trouble while it was being flown to California for storage.
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...emergency-landing-orlando-20190326-story.html
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...emergency-landing-orlando-20190326-story.html
Yossarian
⏭️
According to another NYT story, Boeing rushed development of the 737 Max because American Airlines was about to place a large order with Airbus.
Very serious stuff, and very likely accurate.
It looks like the MCAS was to blame for the Ethiopian crash - Boeing have refused to comment so far
Boeing anti-stall device 'activated'
It's unusual for the beeb to let a spelling mistake through to publication
Boeing anti-stall device 'activated'
It's unusual for the beeb to let a spelling mistake through to publication
My display is a projector but its PSU blew up last week and I haven't picked up the replacement yet so I'm using a spare unit - Sadly, it's resolution is a bit crap compared to the normal one so I misread the thing. I stare at my screen for hours on end and I find the projector doesn't strain me in the way a normal screen manages. I'll be glad when I can get the main one back into service. They told me a week, maybe 2, so hopefully I'll have it back up and running very soon.
Sorry, Auntie Beeb
BBC News - Ethiopian Airlines crash: 'Pitch up, pitch up!'
'Pitch up, pitch up!' - Ethiopian pilot
The crash was downed by a duff system, but Boeing are still claiming the enforced upgrades are not an admission of fault.
Massive cock ups are one thing, but I suggest Boeing are a bunch of twats that deserve a lot more than is likely to happen to them
'Pitch up, pitch up!' - Ethiopian pilot
The crash was downed by a duff system, but Boeing are still claiming the enforced upgrades are not an admission of fault.
Massive cock ups are one thing, but I suggest Boeing are a bunch of twats that deserve a lot more than is likely to happen to them
T & P
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Apologies if it has already been posted, but this NYT article about the driving reason why Boeing rushed the design and launch of the MAX is as fascinating as is shocking. Basically it all came down to pride, to avoid losing a single deal that happened to involve a US airline, AA.
The financial cost would have been insignificant, but Boeing hated the idea of Airbus getting one over them on their own turf, so they were happy to both compromise on quality and conceal information about critical systems from the pilots to rush certification. As if the CEO of Boeing was an eight year old kid.
Boeing Was ‘Go, Go, Go’ to Beat Airbus With the 737 Max
First lawsuit against Boeing regarding the Ethiopian crash. This has the obvious merit of replacing a family's lost income, but has the added potential of punitive damages and, most importantly, Boeing have to defend their aircraft design and procedures in court.
Given they've already effectively admitted it was crap by the fact they've changed it, Boeing have a tough job on their hands.
Boeing faces US lawsuit over Ethiopian Airlines crash
EDIT - The other victims' families (Both flights)are likely to follow up on this, perhaps with a class action. Let's hope Boeing and the FAA are exposed for what is looking a lot like deliberate actions that directly caused so many deaths.
Given they've already effectively admitted it was crap by the fact they've changed it, Boeing have a tough job on their hands.
Boeing faces US lawsuit over Ethiopian Airlines crash
EDIT - The other victims' families (Both flights)are likely to follow up on this, perhaps with a class action. Let's hope Boeing and the FAA are exposed for what is looking a lot like deliberate actions that directly caused so many deaths.
Update - I picked up the PSU today and have the proper projector running again - I can't use that excuse again
ferrelhadley
There is no love between us anymore.
Unrelated or "unrelated" the US Airforce has been forced to halt deliveries of new tankers from Boeing on the grounds of tools and things left inside the aircraft.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
In modern aviation every nut and washer needs to be accounted for. So for these kind of things to be left inside the aircraft is a huge no no. They have also suffered long term slips on their Starliner manned capsule and the ultra expensive SLS rocket project. Whether these are just random incidents from a huge conglomerate or part of a creeping failure to prioritise a high standard of engineering culture ahead of cost savings and middle management lethargy is something of a current online debate.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
In modern aviation every nut and washer needs to be accounted for. So for these kind of things to be left inside the aircraft is a huge no no. They have also suffered long term slips on their Starliner manned capsule and the ultra expensive SLS rocket project. Whether these are just random incidents from a huge conglomerate or part of a creeping failure to prioritise a high standard of engineering culture ahead of cost savings and middle management lethargy is something of a current online debate.
2hats
Dust.
Actually both the USAF's (and the Italian AM and Japanese JASDF) in service 767 derived tankers, the KC-767 and KC-46, all use the MCAS augmented pitch system. The USAF are reviewing procedures and crew training, they say. See here for more.
A lot of people will be awaiting this, but for a variety of reasons. I suppose the purest of those is a level of closure for the victims' families, but I have confidence Boeing will immediately hunt through it for excuses and legal gymnastics to get out of the shit.
Ethiopia to issue first Boeing investigation report on Thursday | Reuters
Ethiopia to issue first Boeing investigation report on Thursday | Reuters
UnicornElf
Member
Ethiopia's Civil Aviation Authority (ECAA) posted on their Facebook account:
Preliminary findings on ET 302 crash:
1. Aircraft’s airworthiness was certified;
2. The crew were capable of flying& followed Boeing’s procedures;
3. Take off appeared normal;
4. Crew followed all procedures, but was unable to control the aircraft.
Actual preliminary report by Ethiopia's Ministry of Transport is expected on Apr 4th or Apr 5th 2019.
Preliminary findings on ET 302 crash:
1. Aircraft’s airworthiness was certified;
2. The crew were capable of flying& followed Boeing’s procedures;
3. Take off appeared normal;
4. Crew followed all procedures, but was unable to control the aircraft.
Actual preliminary report by Ethiopia's Ministry of Transport is expected on Apr 4th or Apr 5th 2019.
editor
hiraethified
Damning stuff Ethiopia pilots 'could not stop nosedive'
T & P
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The preliminary report into the Ethiopian crash seems to completely exonerate the pilots, which will all but guarantee the safe passage and eventual success of lawsuits from victims' families. It's not going to bring the company down (which wouldn't be a good thing anyway), but this is rightly going to cost Boeing billions at the least, and possibly an eight-figure sum. No more than it deserves.
The plane is certainly salvageable and will be perfectly safe after the fixes and adequate training for pilots are provided. It'd be a grim prospect for Boeing otherwise as the MAX accounts for nearly 80% of their order book. But they will be taken to the cleaners in the courtroom for their criminal negligence for the sake of pride and extra profits that resulted in more than 300 needless deaths.
And they will lose plenty of additional revenue through cancelled MAX orders and compensation payments to airlines currently unable to fly their planes. Their only saving grace is that the A320 has such a massive order backlog, airlines that need their new planes anytime soon would gain nothing by cancelling their MAX orders, since they'd have to wait much longer to get an A320. Still, a nice bargaining tool to negotiate further discounts on existing orders.
As an aside, the way Boeing has been consistently trying to put the blame for the Lion Air crash on poor pilot training is cunting disgraceful
The plane is certainly salvageable and will be perfectly safe after the fixes and adequate training for pilots are provided. It'd be a grim prospect for Boeing otherwise as the MAX accounts for nearly 80% of their order book. But they will be taken to the cleaners in the courtroom for their criminal negligence for the sake of pride and extra profits that resulted in more than 300 needless deaths.
And they will lose plenty of additional revenue through cancelled MAX orders and compensation payments to airlines currently unable to fly their planes. Their only saving grace is that the A320 has such a massive order backlog, airlines that need their new planes anytime soon would gain nothing by cancelling their MAX orders, since they'd have to wait much longer to get an A320. Still, a nice bargaining tool to negotiate further discounts on existing orders.
As an aside, the way Boeing has been consistently trying to put the blame for the Lion Air crash on poor pilot training is cunting disgraceful
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
They’re admitting/apologising for nothing at the moment, which is standard corporate behaviour really, but always feels mean spirited.
Won’t sink them as there will be plenty of military pork to feed off (and they have the gall to complain about Airbus receiving state subsidy)
Won’t sink them as there will be plenty of military pork to feed off (and they have the gall to complain about Airbus receiving state subsidy)
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Seems Ralph Nadar's grand-niece was on the Ethiopian flight, which is just awful for him. On a greater level though, it can't hurt the process of going after Boeing t o have someone like him very much on-side.
T & P
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There is no such thing as a good airplane crash of course, but the final moments on board must have been as terrifying as any. 575 mph nosedive and impact... 
The crashed Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max hit the ground at 575mph and left a crater 32 feet deep, horrifying details in official report reveal
The crashed Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max hit the ground at 575mph and left a crater 32 feet deep, horrifying details in official report reveal
