Ethiopian Airlines 737 crashes on way to Kenya 157 onboard.

[2hats]

The BEA have downloaded the CVR data and handed it over to the Ethiopian investigators. Recovery of data from the FDR continues.

 

[T & P]

There is an independent body in the USA (its acronym is NASA but I don't think is related to 'the' NASA) where American pilots can report issues and concerns about their airline or aircraft anonymously, without risking sanction from their employer. One of the US newspapers has published extracts from six separate reports from pilots in the last few months complaining about horizontal stabilazer malfunctions while flying the MAX.

Others reported there are various new switches and warning lights in the cockpit for which there is literally no explanation whatsoever in the pilot flight manual. One said he'd been flying for weeks wondering what would happen if he flicked a certain mystery switch he had no clue was for (he sensibly didn't touch it during flight just in case). Apparently some of these switches are for maintenance crew use only, but Boeing didn't bother telling the pilots about them, just as it didn't tell them about MCAS initially.

The MAX is starting to look like a bit of a mess and an update too far for that frame.

 

[2hats]

No. It is actually managed by NASA. They conduct aviation as well as space research.

 

[HAL9000]

The A350 (for comparison) has one dedicated AOA sensor but three multi-function probes (MFP), one of the functions of which is determining AOA.

7 = AOA vane
2 = MFP

2hats all these extra sensors, was this a design change to address the A330 crash? (Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia)

 

[planetgeli]

Flight data from the Ethiopian Airlines disaster a week ago suggest "clear similarities" with a crash off Indonesia last October, Ethiopia's transport minister has said.

"Clear similarities were noted between Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 and Indonesian Lion Air Flight 610, which would be the subject of further study during the investigation," Ms Dagmawit told journalists on Sunday.

In both cases flight tracking data showed the aircraft's altitude had fluctuated sharply, as the planes seemed to experience erratic climbs and descents.

During flight JT610, the system repeatedly forced the plane's nose down, even when the plane was not stalling - possibly due to a faulty sensor.

Pilots tried to correct this by pointing the nose higher, until the system pushed it down again. This happened more than 20 times.

'Clear' parallels between Boeing crashes

 

[editor]

'Clear' parallels between Boeing crashes

If this is true and the fault is laid at their door, Boeing is going to face an almighty onslaught of compensation claims and cancelled orders.

 

[HAL9000]

If this is true and the fault is laid at their door, Boeing is going to face an almighty onslaught of compensation claims and cancelled orders.

With the Lion air crash, according to 'flight international', the day before the crash the same failure occured and the captain selected 'STAB TRIM' switches to 'CUT OUT' and proceeded sucessfully to the scheduled destination (check list says the captain should have diverted to nearest areodrome). After this event maintenace looked at the aircraft, next flight, the plane crashed.

There may well be issues with boeing software and how pilots are trained, i.e. if a pilot can fly a 737, then it was expected they can fly a 737 max.

But for the Lion air crash, why did 1 pilot cope with a failure and the other was unable to recover? Why was maintenance unable to fix the problem? For these answers we will have to wait for the final report.

 

[mauvais]

From what I've read in passing, my understanding is that not only do you need to cut out the trim, you need to adjust it back from its position to normal, which if at full deflection actually takes some time. And again you have to know to do so.

 

[T & P]

The focus should not be on whether better pilot training might have avoided the crashes. Pilots should not be put in such a critical situation in the first place if at all possible, just so the airplane manufacturer can built it as cheaply as possible. And then try to blame accidents on the pilots if/when they happen.

Unless it was technically impossible to implement, if the only reason critical systems receive information from just one sensor instead of three is to save on costs, then Boeing deserves all the lawsuits that come their way. And triple redundancy should be made mandatory.

 

[Supine]

 

[Don Troooomp]

If this is true and the fault is laid at their door, Boeing is going to face an almighty onslaught of compensation claims and cancelled orders.

If that turns out to be true, they deserve the mess that will surely happen.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

No. It is actually managed by NASA. They conduct aviation as well as space research.

Indeed, the first A in NASA = Aeronautics, inn'it.

 

[2hats]

2hats all these extra sensors, was this a design change to address the A330 crash? (Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia)

AF447 and other loss of control in flight events have certainly influenced the design of the A350.

 

[2hats]

DFDR readout completed, verified (by BEA and NTSB with the EAIB) and all data handed over to the Ethiopian Accident Investigation Bureau. Initial comment only that there are clear similarities in the flight data between ET302 and JT610 accidents. Full preliminary report expected in 30 days.

 

[2hats]

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

As Boeing hustled in 2015 to catch up to Airbus and certify its new 737 MAX, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) managers pushed the agency’s safety engineers to delegate safety assessments to Boeing itself, and to speedily approve the resulting analysis.

But the original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA for a new flight control system on the MAX - a report used to certify the plane as safe to fly - had several crucial flaws.

That flight control system, called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System), is now under scrutiny after two crashes of the jet in less than five months resulted in Wednesday’s FAA order to ground the plane.

Current and former engineers directly involved with the evaluations or familiar with the document shared details of Boeing’s “System Safety Analysis” of MCAS, which The Seattle Times confirmed.

The safety analysis:

• Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall. When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.
• Failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.
• Assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.

 

[Don Troooomp]

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

Just read this. That isn't a flaw, it sounds like deliberate falsification of results.

 

[2hats]

Reuters report hinting that EASA and the Canadians (TCCA) will want to independently certify the MAX series before they permit flights in their jurisdictions, rather than relying on the FAA this time.

 

[Don Troooomp]

I wonder how many of these aircraft are on lease, and what the agreement says about the aircraft not being fit to fly.
I suspect there are going to be lawsuits flying a lot more than the planes.

 

[planetgeli]

Exclusive: Cockpit voice recorder of doomed Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix - sources | Reuters

Lion air flight recorders suggest pilots were frantically searching for an answer in the manual to the nosediving and ran out of time. Suggestive of lack of training and an answer buried deep on p273 (for example) rather than expected professionalism we take for granted.

If this turns out to be true I hope Boeing metaphorically hang for this.

 

[2hats]

Exclusive: Cockpit voice recorder of doomed Lion Air jet depicts pilots' frantic search for fix - sources | Reuters

Lion air flight recorders suggest pilots were frantically searching for an answer in the manual to the nosediving and ran out of time. Suggestive of lack of training and an answer buried deep on p273 (for example) rather than expected professionalism we take for granted.

What is really interesting is that sources close to the Indonesian investigation have leaked the fact that a third jumpseat (off duty) pilot in the cockpit on a preceding flight leg of the same airframe saved their bacon in near identical circumstances (because he could diagnose whilst the PIC/FO fought with the flight controls, but also because, likely from his seat he could see the trim settings more clearly).

This looks increasingly like both certification and training issues.

 

[weltweit]

What is really interesting is that sources close to the Indonesian investigation have leaked the fact that a third jumpseat (off duty) pilot in the cockpit on a preceding flight leg of the same airframe saved their bacon in near identical circumstances (because he could diagnose whilst the PIC/FO fought with the flight controls, but also because, likely from his seat he could see the trim settings more clearly).

This looks increasingly like both certification and training issues.

Wouldn't they have been duty bound to warn subsequent flight teams of the issue and its solution?

 

[MrSki]

It seems like Boeing are in shit street. Doesn't look like they have a leg to stand on but the law is decided by big bucks so we shall see.

 

[T & P]

A joint criminal investigation of the US Dept of Transportation and the FBI is now afoot.

 

[Don Troooomp]

A joint criminal investigation of the US Dept of Transportation and the FBI is now afoot.

Quite right too - If they did as suspected, that makes these deaths a very serious crime rather than a pair of tragic accidents, and it's looking bad for Boeing

FBI joining criminal investigation into certification of Boeing 737 MAX

The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.

 

[Lancman]

The Federal Aviation Authority was accepted as the “gold standard” for flight safety around the world and its word was trusted. That is now totally shot.

 

[Badgers]

Indonesian airline Garuda cancels order for 49 Boeing 737 Max 8 jets

Boeing too big to fail?

 

[mauvais]

Boeing too big to fail?

Yes.

 

[Don Troooomp]

Indonesian airline Garuda cancels order for 49 Boeing 737 Max 8 jets

Boeing too big to fail?

From the link

as part of changes that Boeing is rushing to complete on the jets by early next week

That fills me with confidence - NOT!
As for too big to fail, probably, but they'll take a hit - or at least the share price will

 

[2hats]

The Federal Aviation Authority was accepted as the “gold standard” for flight safety around the world and its word was trusted. That is now totally shot.

EASA (and the TCCA) would validate FAA certification in their sphere of operation (in line with EU Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreements); ie accept the FAA certification (and vice versa). That's clearly under scrutiny right now.

Yes.

Indeed, considering how much military hardware they supply to Uncle Sam.

 

[T & P]

i don't think the company will fall but a short term significant knock to their commercial planes division now seems inevitable. And it is probably a good thing for everyone. I know large corporations, including Airbus of course, enjoy some influence over and connections within their national governments, but Boeing's power over the US government and its federal bodies seems too great and out of control, in particular when it results in safety procedures being overlooked.