Ethiopian Airlines 737 crashes on way to Kenya 157 onboard.

[Teaboy]

Of course it is, but what else did you expect? Philanthropy? Same at Airbus, same everywhere.

Quite right, this is all commercial interest so everything is about money.

Lots of hyperbole going on, as ever. The new safety issue would be normal, positive practice but now everything is under an intense spotlight and people want drama.

Right again. This latest safety report is what happens all the time, it even applies to some 737NG planes which have an extraordinary safety record. This plane will be back in the air soon and it will go on to sell a shed load of units. It has to as there are no other alternatives, what are the likes of Ryanair and South West going to do? Suddenly retrain all their pilots onto Airbus? What is the lead time on Airbus planes at the moment anyway? 8 years?

I get the feeling this isn't about Boeing anymore its about credibility in the regulatory landscape in the US. Fingers have been badly burned and they're out to prove a point now.

Making a slightly wider point but I do think this whole episode has highlighted how much of a need there is for a third major plane manufacturer to compete with Boeing and Airbus, even if its just on narrow body. Whether they come from China or Russia time will tell.

 

[T & P]

Quite right, this is all commercial interest so everything is about money.



Right again. This latest safety report is what happens all the time, it even applies to some 737NG planes which have an extraordinary safety record. This plane will be back in the air soon and it will go on to sell a shed load of units. It has to as there are no other alternatives, what are the likes of Ryanair and South West going to do? Suddenly retrain all their pilots onto Airbus? What is the lead time on Airbus planes at the moment anyway? 8 years?

I get the feeling this isn't about Boeing anymore its about credibility in the regulatory landscape in the US. Fingers have been badly burned and they're out to prove a point now.

Making a slightly wider point but I do think this whole episode has highlighted how much of a need there is for a third major plane manufacturer to compete with Boeing and Airbus, even if its just on narrow body. Whether they come from China or Russia time will tell.

Fully agree. Airbus’s order book is booked solid for 5-6 years, so even if airlines wanted to switch sides, there won’t be any planes available to buy for years.

Another reason Airbus has resisted any temptation to capitalise on the MAX woes is that the worst thing that could happen is if Boeing decided to write off the program, and launched a brand new narrowbody airplane. That would force Airbus to reciprocate or otherwise lose most future sales, and a clean sweep design costs north of 10bn these days. Both manufacturers are quite happy sharing a 40 to 60% share of the market with their current offerings, with all the R&D costs long paid off.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Boeing are still making the 737MAX8, here's them piling up in the plane-park...

 

[planetgeli]

Boeing are still making the 737MAX8, here's them piling up in the plane-park...

View attachment 173531

Wot no RyanAir?

Yeah, they’re not putting those in the bin are they.

Also, Boeing 737 MAX: Icelandair dismisses 45 pilots

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Wot no RyanAir?

Yeah, they’re not putting those in the bin are they.

Also, Boeing 737 MAX: Icelandair dismisses 45 pilots

The pilots should (probably will) sue Boeing.

 

[Don Troooomp]

Boeing are still making the 737MAX8, here's them piling up in the plane-park...

View attachment 173531

That's a lot of aeroplanes, and a lot of cash. I gather each one is about a hundred million dollars - a very big financial 'oops'.
I'm unsure I'd trust Boeing not to try to force through getting these things back into the air regardless of their ability to fly safely. They did it before, and tried to deflect from the true causes of the crashes, so it's hard to trust them now.

 

[DownwardDog]

Making a slightly wider point but I do think this whole episode has highlighted how much of a need there is for a third major plane manufacturer to compete with Boeing and Airbus, even if its just on narrow body. Whether they come from China or Russia time will tell.

It isn't going to be Russia as their civil aviation industry is basically dead but kept on life support by Putin for reasons of national vanity. The only non Russian customer for the SSJ100 was Interjet who got absolutely fucked on technical support. All of the other sales were to Aeroflot who were ordered by the Russian government to buy them
(ie the business model that was so successful for the British civil aviation industry) or dirt cheap leases to Russian airlines via the state owned leasing company.

China might break the AB duopoly but they are decades away. They've sold plenty of C919s but none outside China.

Embraer (if they don't get swallowed by Boeing) are the most likely contender.

 

[Dogsauce]

Need someone like Musk or Bezos to get into plane manufacturing and properly piss away their fortunes in five minutes. Should encourage them really, appeal to their vanity.

 

[T & P]

Another day, another revelation. Boeing knew as far back as 2017 there was a fault with the AoA disagree warning light, but decided to defer the fix until 2020. I’m sure lawyers representing families of the crash victims are going to latch onto that...

737 MAX warning light issue known since 2017

 

[weltweit]

Boeing hit by new 737 Max problem

 

[T & P]

In itself not major but overall what a clusterfuck...

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

They hoped to get it back in the air in July, pushed that back to autumn, now it’s going to be even longer. Needs killing, yet Boeing has still to issue the mea culpa that is needed for them to actually move on from this shit.

 

[Don Troooomp]

They're having trouble fixing the thing, but the FAA is being watched very carefully so they have to be really sure they've got every little glitch out of it this time.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Not looking good.... The Boeing 737 MAX Probe Is Now Investigating The 787 Dreamliner - Simple Flying

 

[Don Troooomp]

Reportedly, waste materials including tools and metal shavings had been discovered in completed aircraft, leading some customers, including Qatar, to reject their delivered planes.

That's bad news as it shows sloppy workmanship and bad quality control, two things you really don't need from an aircraft manufacturer.

 

[Don Troooomp]

It gets even worse, they seem to admit falsifying documents

Boeing admits falsifying documents of Air Canada Dreamliner

Among the reports that the U.S. Department of Justice is starting to investigate the production of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, a specific manufacturing incident involving the aircraft has come to light. Boeing seemingly admitted that some documents regarding a Dreamliner sold to Air Canada had been falsified. That same plane experienced an oil leak, after ten months of service.

On June 29, 2019, Boeing sent a statement to CBC News where it admitted the falsification of several certificates of the 787 Dreamliner, registered C-GHPQ, which was the first to be delivered to Air Canada. After only ten months of service, the aircraft was affected by an incident.

 

[Don Troooomp]

and again - Another fault Boeing are aware of but have done nothing about.

Pilots fret over fire safety of Dreamliner planes, also used by El AL — report

Airline pilots have expressed concern over the safety of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft after an engine firefighting system was found to be faulty...
...
In its alert, Boeing warned that the fire-extinguisher switch in the engines has failed in a “small number” of cases. Long-term heating can cause the switch to remain locked and obstruct the release of two fire extinguishers in each engine.

The US aircraft manufacturing giant said less than 1 percent of the switches have failed and that it is assisting airlines in dealing with the issue.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

and again - Another fault Boeing are aware of but have done nothing about.

Pilots fret over fire safety of Dreamliner planes, also used by El AL — report

See, this is things go wrong and get fixed, that Air Canada is very, very different.

 

[planetgeli]

Here come the cancellations.

Boeing loses big order for 737 Max aircraft

 

[not-bono-ever]

toxic now, they cannot continue to produce anything with that name

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

toxic now, they cannot continue to produce anything with that name

It’s more than a name change, Boeing needs to end the 737 and come up with a new one. Yet they are still fucking around trying to cover arses over the near-on 400 lives they ended with their bollocks. Keep this up and the company will go under.

 

[T & P]

Here come the cancellations.

Boeing loses big order for 737 Max aircraft

Inexplicably, during the recent Paris Air Show the parent company of BA and Iberia signed a letter of intent to buy 200 MAXs. Airbus wasn’t even asked to bid for the contract. It was completely unexpected and also raised many eyebrows in the industry.

I can only imagine Boeing all but gave them away. I’m not sure it will become a firm order though.

 

[DownwardDog]

Inexplicably, during the recent Paris Air Show the parent company of BA and Iberia signed a letter of intent to buy 200 MAXs. Airbus wasn’t even asked to bid for the contract. It was completely unexpected and also raised many eyebrows in the industry.

I can only imagine Boeing all but gave them away. I’m not sure it will become a firm order though.

It's not completely inexplicable. There is an A320 pilot shortage in Europe and salaries are on the way up so 737 crew are cheaper. It's the same reason EasyJet are now considering a split fleet.

 

[Chz]

I was also under the impression that A320/319/318 orders were backlogged to hell and back, whereas you can pick up a brand new 737Max in fairly short order once it's certified again. (assuming that happens)

 

[T & P]

I was also under the impression that A320/319/318 orders were backlogged to hell and back, whereas you can pick up a brand new 737Max in fairly short order once it's certified again. (assuming that happens)

The MAX has a backlog of nearly 5,000 orders as well so there is a waiting list for them, if not as long as that for the A320 family.

Though if things continue as they are the backlog might be drasitcally reduced very quickly by means of mass order cancellations. The problems keep mounting, and even though it has not been confirmed (or denied) officially yet, European regulators have apparently made a list of five problems Boeing must fix, one of which is a new issue, this time affecting the autopilot

EASA 'demands fix on autopilot issue'

 

[not-bono-ever]

Problem sorted

Boeing 737 Max ordered by Ryanair undergoes name change

 

[Teaboy]

Problem sorted

Boeing 737 Max ordered by Ryanair undergoes name change

I've been waiting for that, the Max name has become toxic. I suspect most passengers don't pay that much attention to the make / model of plane they are flying on. Just quietly remove it from the side of the plane and the safety information card and most people won't know / care.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I've been waiting for that, the Max name has become toxic. I suspect most passengers don't pay that much attention to the make / model of plane they are flying on. Just quietly remove it from the side of the plane and the safety information card and most people won't know / care.

The risk in doing this is that the whole 737 brand becomes toxic as people may decide that if they don't know outright if it is the crashy one, they'll just avoid 737 altogether.

or maybe they won't care.

 

[fishfinger]

A recently re-branded 737-MAX

 

[weltweit]

The risk in doing this is that the whole 737 brand becomes toxic as people may decide that if they don't know outright if it is the crashy one, they'll just avoid 737 altogether.

I would tend to avoid 737s altogether if it becomes too hard to tell which are rebranded Max versions. Perhaps easier in fact to have a fly Airbus only policy.

I assume it might at least be possible to specify what plane maker I will fly on before travelling to and queuing for the flight?

or maybe they won't care.

Oh I care.
Last thing I want is to prematurely end my life flying flat out into the ground at 500mph.