Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.

[liquidindian]

I am sure plenty of regular commuting cyclists routinely experience similar,

"Routinely" is overstating it, when it happens I'm not going fast enough for it to be a problem.

 

[thebackrow]

As a motorcyclist, almost on every single journey. Sometimes one can spot them in advance, but other times they will literally materialise on the middle of the road squeezing past a van or lorry without ever bothering to look right for any two wheeled traffic travelling quite legally in the middle of the road. I am sure plenty of regular commuting cyclists routinely experience similar, whether when riding kerbside or in the middle of the road.

That explains a lot.

look back at the extreme and routine speeding by motorcyclists, and the high number of injuries they cause in the data posted back up thread.

Slow the fuck down.

I don't share T&Ps experience of Europe - my own experience as a pedestrian, cyclist and driving is that it's much the same as here when you're not protected by infrastructure. French driving (speed, tailgating) is generally terrifiying. Cycling there it's great until it isn't - I've ridden some big mountains and it's lovely. People cheering you on, passing good and wide. Until it gets a little busier on the road and someone might have to slow down for moment when suddenly you're being close passed or overtaken on a blind bend just as much as in the UK. There are loads of videos of dangerous Dutch driving around cyclists away from infrastructure.

There is different enforcement. The French don't fuck about painting their speed cameras yellow. They're small, grey and hidden. And there are often completely covert speed traps as well.
The Swiss have really significant fines for speeding - multiples of income (plus at a certain level above automatic bans and vehicles seized). Germany has various speed enforcement measures and is really strict on drug and alcohol driving.

 

[David Clapson]

motorcyclists, and the high number of injuries they cause in the data posted back up thread.

Which post please?

 

[teuchter]

As a motorcyclist, almost on every single journey. Sometimes one can spot them in advance, but other times they will literally materialise on the middle of the road squeezing past a van or lorry without ever bothering to look right for any two wheeled traffic travelling quite legally in the middle of the road. I am sure plenty of regular commuting cyclists routinely experience similar, whether when riding kerbside or in the middle of the road.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong or unreasonable about expecting pedestrians to at the very least look properly if they have unwisely decided to cross a busy road crammed with stationary cars, vans and lorries.

Of course there is a duty of care falling onto two wheelers too, and in fact if cyclists and bikers were as fucking careless as most pedestrians are, collisions and injuries would be twentyfold what they are now. But the bottom line is that it takes two to tango regardless of burden of responsibility based on vulnerability. If only because at the end of the day, not being in breach of the Highway Code doesn’t really matter if you still end up seriously injured or worse.

Perhaps it’s because I have regularly been all kinds of road user over the years, from ped to cyclist to biker to car driver. But I never cease to be amazed at the appalling lack of situational awareness and complete lack of the most basic notion of self-preservation a very significant proportion of pedestrians in this country demonstrate. It’s almost as if they’re actually unaware of the existence of bicycles and motorbikes, despite having lived among them for their entire lives.

We know all this - you've written many versions of this particular rant throughout the thread, just like the ones about cyclists.

We know you think pedestrians and cyclists behave badly.

But you keep ignoring the question of what you want to happen, in order to emulate what you claim is significantly better behaviour in these other places you mention.

Prove you're not a tribalist by making some actual suggestions how to improve things instead of ranting about road users that aren't you.

 

[thebackrow]

Which post please?

Motorbike speeds on 20mph roads.

Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.

A cyclist that fucks around generally finds they end up injuring themselves or paying to replace an expensive bike. A motorist that fucks around massively hurts someone else usually.

www.urban75.net

Motorcyclists are disproprotiationaly dangerous to other road users - second only to HGVs - per mile they travel.


Nearly a quarter of motorcyclist fatal/serious have no other vehicle involved. they're quite capable of just wiping themselves out, and leaving society to clear up the mess.

 

[T & P]

That explains a lot.

look back at the extreme and routine speeding by motorcyclists, and the high number of injuries they cause in the data posted back up thread.

Slow the fuck down.

Erm... I go very slow- the very reason why I don't slam into a zombie lemming once a week on average. That is irrelevant to the fact that it's the pedestrian who is acting reckelessly and unjustifiably.

 

[T & P]

We know all this - you've written many versions of this particular rant throughout the thread, just like the ones about cyclists.

We know you think pedestrians and cyclists behave badly.

But you keep ignoring the question of what you want to happen, in order to emulate what you claim is significantly better behaviour in these other places you mention.

Prove you're not a tribalist by making some actual suggestions how to improve things instead of ranting about road users that aren't you.

Better cycling infrastructe, when balanced and reasonable, can only be a good thing and I would welcome it.

Regarding pedestrians, since no infrastructure in the world (other than erecting West Bank-style walls between every pavement and the adjacent road, which I'm sure most people would object to) is going to stop a significant proportion of them behaving irresponsibly, what I would like to see is regular campaigns by the government urging pedestrians to check before crossing, in particular in congested road situations. And to not emerge onto a road from behind buses and other large vehicles. And to look out for cycles and bikes. Coupled with the introduction of jaywalking legislation in the immediate vicinity of traffic light-regulated crossings, and warnings followed by fines for repeat offences for anyone who ignores the red man crossing light.

 

[platinumsage]

In Germany jaywalking is illegal in some circumstances, but also socially unacceptable. This makes Germany safer for pedestrians.

Fatalities -

UK
Total: 1752
Pedestrians 470
Cyclists: 100

Germany
Total: 3046
Pedestrians 417
Cyclists 445

Note that the UK is a remarkably safe place for cyclists compared to Germany. Anyone serious about reducing road deaths will focus not on more cycle lanes but on ensuring pedestrians are more careful, perhaps by introducing some appropriate legislation.

 

[thebackrow]

In Germany jaywalking is illegal in some circumstances, but also socially unacceptable. This makes Germany safer for pedestrians.

Fatalities -

UK
Total: 1752
Pedestrians 470
Cyclists: 100

Germany
Total: 3046
Pedestrians 417
Cyclists 445

Note that the UK is a remarkably safe place for cyclists compared to Germany. Anyone serious about reducing road deaths will focus not on more cycle lanes but on ensuring pedestrians are more careful, perhaps by introducing some appropriate legislation.

You do realise that without adjusting for population size and distance travelled (ie exposure) using each mode of transport those figures are utterly meaningless.

In the UK we’ve largely made walking and cycling “safe” by making it unpleasant enough that few people do it much.

Motorbikes aren’t safer than cars because they kill fewer pedestrians, they’re more dangerous because they kill more pedestrians per mile travelled .

The Netherlands has very high numbers of death by >65s cycling compared to anywhere else. Because they have mass cycling by >65s (many of whom die if natural causes, while still cycling).

 

[platinumsage]

You do realise that without adjusting for population size and distance travelled (ie exposure) using each mode of transport those figures are utterly meaningless.

In the UK we’ve largely made walking and cycling “safe” by making it unpleasant enough that few people do it much.

Motorbikes aren’t safer than cars because they kill fewer pedestrians, they’re more dangerous because they kill more pedestrians per mile travelled .

The Netherlands has very high numbers of death by >65s cycling compared to anywhere else. Because they have mass cycling by >65s (many of whom die if natural causes, while still cycling).

You can adjust for anything to make a point. Per mile, per journey, per occupant mile, adjusted for age, type of road, time of day, etc etc

Such adjustments don’t magically convert the number of deaths from something that is “utterly meaningless” to some sort of special truth that will win you an argument.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Jaywalking, lol

Get to fuck with that bullshit.

 

[Cid]

Better cycling infrastructe, when balanced and reasonable, can only be a good thing and I would welcome it.

Regarding pedestrians, since no infrastructure in the world (other than erecting West Bank-style walls between every pavement and the adjacent road, which I'm sure most people would object to) is going to stop a significant proportion of them behaving irresponsibly, what I would like to see is regular campaigns by the government urging pedestrians to check before crossing, in particular in congested road situations. And to not emerge onto a road from behind buses and other large vehicles. And to look out for cycles and bikes. Coupled with the introduction of jaywalking legislation in the immediate vicinity of traffic light-regulated crossings, and warnings followed by fines for repeat offences for anyone who ignores the red man crossing light.

Or you could just not ride too fast in congested traffic.

 

[teuchter]

Such adjustments don’t magically convert the number of deaths from something that is “utterly meaningless” to some sort of special truth that will win you an argument.

They don't do it magically, that's right.

 

[platinumsage]

Looking forward to someone adjusting Germany’s number of cycling deaths which is 445% higher than UK’s, to something fewer than the UK’s, and then winning an argument over it, without using magic.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Jaywalking, lol

Get to fuck with that bullshit.

Not wrong that pedestrians need to be aware of surroundings but jaywalking can fuck off then fuck off a bit more.

 

[platinumsage]

Note that in Germany it’s basically not enforced, but has engendered a culture of pedestrians obeying crossing signals. Obviously a good thing.

 

[T & P]

Or you could just not ride too fast in congested traffic.

Driving at 15 mph is too fast??

 

[Artaxerxes]

Note that in Germany it’s basically not enforced, but has engendered a culture of pedestrians obeying crossing signals. Obviously a good thing.

Ah like pavement cycling here

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Driving at 15 mph is too fast??

If there’s a pedestrian in the way, yes.

 

[Cid]

Driving at 15 mph is too fast??

You understand that 'too fast' is a relative thing right? 'too fast' effectively means 'can't properly react to hazards in the road'. So yes. It is too fast. It's not as if pedestrians are the only hazards in congested traffic in any case.

Also how many miles of heavily congested traffic with a high probability of pedestrians and low visibility are you actually covering? 2 miles where you're going 10mph instead of 15mph is going to add a whole 4 minutes to your commute.

 

[T & P]

If there’s a pedestrian in the way, yes.

But that's the point. There are no pedestrians on the way, or even visible. If they took the basic precaution of looking before appearing in the middle of the road behind a tall vehicle, then there would not be a problem at all.

 

[thebackrow]

Driving at 15 mph is too fast??

Just very very unlikely
Post in thread 'Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.'
Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.

 

[T & P]

You understand that 'too fast' is a relative thing right? 'too fast' effectively means 'can't properly react to hazards in the road'. So yes. It is too fast. It's not as if pedestrians are the only hazards in congested traffic in any case.

Also how many miles of heavily congested traffic with a high probability of pedestrians and low visibility are you actually covering? 2 miles where you're going 10mph instead of 15mph is going to add a whole 4 minutes to your commute.

Or the other solution is, allow two-wheeled vehicles to bypass congested traffic, which is one of the major points of the very existence of bikes, at a safe but reasonable speed, rather than virtually going at 2 mph because some people are too fucking reckless and/or entitled to take any responsibility whatsoever for their actions.

 

[Cid]

some people are too fucking reckless and/or entitled to take any responsibility whatsoever for their actions.

Yep.


'They' certainly are.

 

[T & P]

Just very very unlikely
Post in thread 'Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.'
Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.

Certainly not by me, and plenty of other bikers (though there are always some idiots of course), when travelling in the middle of the road in congested traffic conditions. We don't know in which circumstances those collisions took place, but only a complete cunt (not long for the world anyway) would travel at speed in the middle of the road with stationary traffic.

 

[liquidindian]

Maybe just give up the motorbike, I don't think it's for you.

 

[T & P]

Maybe just give up the motorbike, I don't think it's for you.

I could start walking everywhere and become an entitled zombie lemming, I guess...

 

[thebackrow]

They don't do it magically, that's right.

I mean you can prove anything with facts can’t you. I prefer to rely on ignorance and blind prejudice.

 

[liquidindian]

I could start walking everywhere and become an entitled zombie lemming, I guess...

Go for it. Really show us other pedestrians up. We'll be dead impressed, I promise.

 

[edcraw]

Bloody entitled pedestrians. Those fuckers have had it far too easy for far too long!