Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.

[farmerbarleymow]

Anyone who kills someone while driving a car while speeding, uninsured or unfit to drive because of drink or drugs should never receive anything but a hefty prison sentence - they're clearly a danger to the community.

View attachment 336369

Observed on a brief trip to the English countryside where we know everyone really wants to support better bus services and better access to bus services.

I congratulated a traffic warden for putting a ticket on one of those the other day - it was parked blocking the pavement for pedestrians. Might see if I can get a saturday job as a traffic warden - I'd enjoy that.

 

[edcraw]

Anyone who kills someone while driving a car while speeding, uninsured or unfit to drive because of drink or drugs should never receive anything but a hefty prison sentence - they're clearly a danger to the community.

For sure + life time driving ban. Depressing that this is far from what any political party would ever suggest though. Also, suspect it wouldn’t actually stop people from doing it.

That’s why we need measures to reduce traffic to make our streets safer despite the wails of the talk radio mob.

 

[edcraw]

Cities in the Phillipines looking to introduce a requirement (like some areas of Japan) to prove you have somewhere to park it before being able to buy a car.

Bill says 'parking space first' before car purchase, registration

The Nation's Leading Newspaper

mb.com.ph

 

[Artaxerxes]

For sure + life time driving ban. Depressing that this is far from what any political party would ever suggest though. Also, suspect it wouldn’t actually stop people from doing it.

That’s why we need measures to reduce traffic to make our streets safer despite the wails of the talk radio mob.

What we need is enforcement and people fucking behaving.

Hate to do the personal anecdote thing but after a few days in Brussels its amazing how many crossings there were on every street and how few drivers gleefully sped across them. For a capital city as well the traffic was fairly free flowing. Plenty of cars but not a huge level of gridlock from what I could see. This was also true of bikes and scooters btw, pretty fucking well behaved riders of both of them and not to many light jumpers or pavement speeders.

 

[T & P]

What we need is enforcement and people fucking behaving.

Hate to do the personal anecdote thing but after a few days in Brussels its amazing how many crossings there were on every street and how few drivers gleefully sped across them. For a capital city as well the traffic was fairly free flowing. Plenty of cars but not a huge level of gridlock from what I could see. This was also true of bikes and scooters btw, pretty fucking well behaved riders of both of them and not to many light jumpers or pavement speeders.

i don’t think anyone here, including those forever tagged as ‘pro-car’, would ever disagree with that.

Problem in the UK is the marked tribalism, open hostility towards other road users, and a very poor observance of traffic rules. I haven’t been to Brussels but on every German city I’ve visited, as well the likes of Amsterdam and Copenhagen, very few seem to behave like an antisocial dick, let alone in a reckless way.

Most cars drive slowly and considerably. Most pedestrians don’t jaywalk if illegal. Most cyclists and e-scooterists stop at lights even if the road is deserted. Undoubtedly there will be road casualties of all types there as well, but I wouldn’t be surprised if most cities in Germany, Holland or Denmark post lower injuries and deaths per head compared with London. At the very least it makes for a more pleasant travelling experience.

 

[teuchter]

i don’t think anyone here, including those forever tagged as ‘pro-car’, would ever disagree with that.

Problem in the UK is the marked tribalism, open hostility towards other road users, and a very poor observance of traffic rules. I haven’t been to Brussels but on every German city I’ve visited, as well the likes of Amsterdam and Copenhagen, very few seem to behave like an antisocial dick, let alone in a reckless way.

Most cars drive slowly and considerably. Most pedestrians don’t jaywalk if illegal. Most cyclists and e-scooterists stop at lights even if the road is deserted. Undoubtedly there will be road casualties of all types there as well, but I wouldn’t be surprised if most cities in Germany, Holland or Denmark post lower injuries and deaths per head compared with London. At the very least it makes for a more pleasant travelling experience.

So... what are they doing right in German, Dutch and Danish cities and how can we emulate it in the UK?

Interested in your opinion as someone who's argued against things like 20mph speed limits, low traffic neighbourhoods and increased roadspace for cycling.

 

[T & P]

So... what are they doing right in German, Dutch and Danish cities and how can we emulate it in the UK?

Interested in your opinion as someone who's argued against things like 20mph speed limits, low traffic neighbourhoods and increased roadspace for cycling.

I’ve argued about some localised 20 mph limits and LTNs, not all of them. Never have said otherwise.

Anyone not even prepared to concede the possibility that it is possible to firmly suppose any given initiative but recognise in some specific cases it might not be fit for purpose or even prove counterproductive is wading into fundamentalist close minded territory. As if the suggestion for instance that if most LTNs work but even just one of them could be causing more problems than solving them must be automatically dismissed without consideration and the proponent branded as a cyclist hating petrolhead. Which is exactly what has happened in this thread, repeatedly. You’re with us 100%, or against us.

That is a perfect example of the bitter tribalism prevalent in traffic discussions in this country. No surrender, do not concede an inch to the enemy.

 

[teuchter]

I’ve argued about some localised 20 mph limits and LTNs, not all of them. Never have said otherwise.

Anyone not even prepared to concede the possibility that it is possible to firmly suppose any given initiative but recognise in some specific cases it might not be fit for purpose or even prove counterproductive is wading into fundamentalist close minded territory. As if the suggestion for instance that if most LTNs work but even just one of them could be causing more problems than solving them must be automatically dismissed without consideration and the proponent branded as a cyclist hating petrolhead. Which is exactly what has happened in this thread, repeatedly. You’re with us 100%, or against us.

That is a perfect example of the bitter tribalism prevalent in traffic discussions in this country. No surrender, do not concede an inch to the enemy.

Ok. That's your response to my second paragraph. But what about the first?

 

[edcraw]

So... what are they doing right in German, Dutch and Danish cities and how can we emulate it in the UK?

Don’t know the specifics but I think it’s where cars are made to feel like guests that driving is of a better standard. For example Clapham road now with single lane for traffic, 20mph limit and wide bus & cycle lanes the traffic moves a lot more freely and at a better pace. When you have 2 wide lanes and 30mph traffic would cut in and out, undertake, accelerate quickly etc.

Upper Tulse Hill used to have traffic tearing down it day and night at high speeds. Now it’s in an LTN most vehicles obey thev 20mph and pedestrians feel safer crossing side roads & cyclists are t in fear of aggressive drivers.

Also, you give cyclists good quality, continuous bike lanes thu use them rather than the road and most will go at a sensible space.

Same with pedestrians - continuous pavements with clear priority at side roads over traffic turning.

The issues seem to come when we prioritise vehicles over everyone else. The depressing think is how much some people will go to oppose these sort of things.

 

[edcraw]

This just seems to happen everyday and not even a thought of changing it.

Driver spared jail after causing grandad's death in Glasgow

Peter Dunnachie's car struck biker Iain Wyatt on a roundabout near Baillieston in May 2020.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[teuchter]

Noted that both Pickman's model and T & P have gone silent since being asked for some specifics on what they actually want, in response to their moanings about the injustice faced by drivers in comparison to other road users.

 

[T & P]

Noted that both Pickman's model and T & P have gone silent since being asked for some specifics on what they actually want, in response to their moanings about the injustice faced by drivers in comparison to other road users.

Oh, I'm sorry, I was still trying to process your 'acknowledment' of my answer to the second pararaph in your post 8,616. You don't try to contest it in any way, so am I to assume you agree then with my riposte that I don't in fact argue against the principle of 20 mph speed restrictions or LTNs, and that you and others on the anti car side behave in a fundamentalist manner towards anyone who might disagree about even one single measure? For a moment there it almost felt like a de facto apology, which would be a first in these boards' history. As you can imagine, that gave me quite a shock.

As to what we can learn from those Continental cities, well, drivers driving carefully and with consideration, pedestrians looking before crossing a road and crossing only when it is sensible to do so, and cyclists not jumping nearly 100% of all red traffic lights they encounter, would be great first step towards everyone stop hating everybody else.

 

[liquidindian]

I don't in fact argue against the principle of 20 mph speed restrictions or LTNs, and that you and others on the anti car side behave in a fundamentalist manner towards anyone who might disagree about even one single measure?

It's fascinating that there are so many people who are not against something in principle, not at all, but we can't have that principle applied here, not in this particular way, not now that it happens to inconvenience them a little.

 

[teuchter]

As to what we can learn from those Continental cities, well, drivers driving carefully and with consideration, pedestrians looking before crossing a road and crossing only when it is sensible to do so, and cyclists not jumping nearly 100% of all red traffic lights they encounter, would be great first step towards everyone stop hating everybody else.

That's the easy bit - stating what nearly everyone would ideally want as an outcome. The question was about how to achieve it though, specifically with reference to what we might be able to learn from those other countries and how they achieve it.

 

[T & P]

It's fascinating that there are so many people who are not against something in principle, not at all, but we can't have that principle applied here, not in this particular way, not now that it happens to inconvenience them a little.

Is fascinating that you keep missing the point or my posts and misrepresenting them.

 

[T & P]

That's the easy bit - stating what nearly everyone would ideally want as an outcome. The question was about how to achieve it though, specifically with reference to what we might be able to learn from those other countries and how they achieve it.

Well, not sure if anyone has an answer for it, not when the sentiments in this country are so ingrained. Doesn't negate the fact IMO that conditions are better for everyone in those cities as a result of acting a like dick being generally frown upon by even members of the same type of road user, rather than being defended as it happens here.

 

[liquidindian]

Is fascinating that you keep missing the point or my posts and misrepresenting them.

Could be I'm wrong and you're the lone exception, of course.

 

[T & P]

Could be I'm wrong and you're the lone exception, of course.

It could also be that you're not very flexible in your opinions and beliefs or prepared to give any consideration to any differing views.

 

[liquidindian]

No, it's not that.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Oh, I'm sorry, I was still trying to process your 'acknowledment' of my answer to the second pararaph in your post 8,616. You don't try to contest it in any way, so am I to assume you agree then with my riposte that I don't in fact argue against the principle of 20 mph speed restrictions or LTNs, and that you and others on the anti car side behave in a fundamentalist manner towards anyone who might disagree about even one single measure? For a moment there it almost felt like a de facto apology, which would be a first in these boards' history. As you can imagine, that gave me quite a shock.

As to what we can learn from those Continental cities, well, drivers driving carefully and with consideration, pedestrians looking before crossing a road and crossing only when it is sensible to do so, and cyclists not jumping nearly 100% of all red traffic lights they encounter, would be great first step towards everyone stop hating everybody else.

Want that to happen? Build the infrastructure that facilitates it.

 

[Cid]

Well, not sure if anyone has an answer for it, not when the sentiments in this country are so ingrained. Doesn't negate the fact IMO that conditions are better for everyone in those cities as a result of acting a like dick being generally frown upon by even members of the same type of road user, rather than being defended as it happens here.

So the common factor here is some nebulous sense of European comradeliness rather than well thought out planning? that makes total sense.

 

[teuchter]

Well, not sure if anyone has an answer for it, not when the sentiments in this country are so ingrained. Doesn't negate the fact IMO that conditions are better for everyone in those cities as a result of acting a like dick being generally frown upon by even members of the same type of road user, rather than being defended as it happens here.

I see, so your position is that it's entirely down to cultural differences and nothing to do with physical planning and infrastructure?

Also correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing you can't really provide any evidence that UK pedestrians and cyclists, given similar conditions, behave with less consideration for other road users, than pedestrians and cyclists in these other countries. That's just your contention, based on some holidays and stuff.

 

[liquidindian]

Those I've met are nice enough but I didn't think the Dutch were generally regarded as overly polite.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I think the main difference is years of under enforcement. I’m not sure if it’s the same on the continent but here aside from speed traps there’s few forces making sure people behave on the roads and if they do it seldom sticks or the offenders can ignore the fines or the courts just wave them through or lose them in backlog.


Hell the absolute martyred outrage of people saying “how dare the police waste time on speed cameras” is quite incredible. Know the rules and don’t speed and don’t moan if you get caught.

The uk has a lot of rules for just about everything but all to often, from roads to the environment there’s noone checking they are obeyed or the money to check people are doing what they should.

 

[T & P]

I see, so your position is that it's entirely down to cultural differences and nothing to do with physical planning and infrastructure?

Also correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing you can't really provide any evidence that UK pedestrians and cyclists, given similar conditions, behave with less consideration for other road users, than pedestrians and cyclists in these other countries. That's just your contention, based on some holidays and stuff.

Funny how anecdotal evidence in this thread is either accepted or not accepted depending on whether the proponent is anti car or otherwise...

But yes, in this particular case, my anecdotal evidence would be very hard to argue against as unreliable, because at the end of the day, if one goes to a given country six times, spending on average three days there, and on every single day of every single visit he observes that practically all pedestrians check carefully before crossing the road and even respect the green man/red man light system even on empty streets, or that most cyclists stop at traffic lights, then yes: it is absolutely reliable evidence. You can shout 'anecdotal personal experience' until you go blue in the face, but deep down you know it is so. Unless you are suggesting I am lying.

The lengths some people in this thread go to actually try to dispute the most obvious and undeniable of facts if they don't happen to fit their narrative is truly fucking priceless If Donald Trump is hiring for his 2024 election campaign team, you are pretty much guaranteed a job.

 

[teuchter]

Funny how anecdotal evidence in this thread is either accepted or not accepted depending on whether the proponent is anti car or otherwise...

But yes, in this particular case, my anecdotal evidence would be very hard to argue against as unreliable, because at the end of the day, if one goes to a given country six times, spending on average three days there, and on every single day of every single visit he observes that practically all pedestrians check carefully before crossing the road and even respect the green man/red man light system even on empty streets, or that most cyclists stop at traffic lights, then yes: it is absolutely reliable evidence. You can shout 'anecdotal personal experience' until you go blue in the face, but deep down you know it is so. Unless you are suggesting I am lying.

The lengths some people in this thread go to actually try to dispute the most obvious and undeniable of facts if they don't happen to fit their narrative is truly fucking priceless If Donald Trump is hiring for his 2024 election campaign team, you are pretty much guaranteed a job.

Thanks for confirming that my guess was right and you can only offer anecdotal evidence for pedestrian/cyclist behaviour. Of course, that anecdotal evidence doesn't really address the question of behaviour under similar conditions.

But again you have avoided answering the first paragraph in my post.

 

[Cid]

Funny how anecdotal evidence in this thread is either accepted or not accepted depending on whether the proponent is anti car or otherwise...

But yes, in this particular case, my anecdotal evidence would be very hard to argue against as unreliable, because at the end of the day, if one goes to a given country six times, spending on average three days there, and on every single day of every single visit he observes that practically all pedestrians check carefully before crossing the road and even respect the green man/red man light system even on empty streets, or that most cyclists stop at traffic lights, then yes: it is absolutely reliable evidence. You can shout 'anecdotal personal experience' until you go blue in the face, but deep down you know it is so. Unless you are suggesting I am lying.

The lengths some people in this thread go to actually try to dispute the most obvious and undeniable of facts if they don't happen to fit their narrative is truly fucking priceless If Donald Trump is hiring for his 2024 election campaign team, you are pretty much guaranteed a job.

Do you often see pedestrians just blithely strolling across the street here without checking? I suppose it wasn't unusual in central London.

I'm out on my bike most days, and honestly pretty rare to see cyclists jump lights these days. Maybe partly as this is Sheffield and traffic tends to be faster moving. I do sometimes see people on pavements etc, but more just kids fucking about than commuters/cyclists.

However every time I go out (by which I mean proper two hour ride rather than 10 minutes to work, 4ish times a week) a driver will break the law/highway code. Usually in a way that puts me or other vehicles at direct risk. Overtaking on blind corners, overtaking too close, overtaking with oncoming traffic and no adequate space, speeding, jumping lights etc etc. In the city and out of it. It's just a regular feature of being on the roads in the UK. It's difficult to create an environment of mutual respect in those circumstances. It's difficult to expect cyclists to respect the letter of the law when every other road user couldn't give a fuck, and specifically couldn't give a fuck in a way that puts cyclists (and pedestrians, and - where I ride - wildlife, farm animals etc) at direct risk.

If you want an environment that makes cyclists nice people, you have to get more of them on the road (because accountability). To do that you need safe cycling infrastructure, you need speed limits, you need to minimise mixing of large vehicles and cyclists. To the point where people feel safe sending an 8 year old off to school without a helmet (although I'm still dubious about minimal helmet wearing). Otherwise we're all going to be aggy bastards who act like you're trying to kill us, because that's the safest assumption.

 

[T & P]

Do you often see pedestrians just blithely strolling across the street here without checking? I suppose it wasn't unusual in central London.

As a motorcyclist, almost on every single journey. Sometimes one can spot them in advance, but other times they will literally materialise on the middle of the road squeezing past a van or lorry without ever bothering to look right for any two wheeled traffic travelling quite legally in the middle of the road. I am sure plenty of regular commuting cyclists routinely experience similar, whether when riding kerbside or in the middle of the road.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong or unreasonable about expecting pedestrians to at the very least look properly if they have unwisely decided to cross a busy road crammed with stationary cars, vans and lorries.

Of course there is a duty of care falling onto two wheelers too, and in fact if cyclists and bikers were as fucking careless as most pedestrians are, collisions and injuries would be twentyfold what they are now. But the bottom line is that it takes two to tango regardless of burden of responsibility based on vulnerability. If only because at the end of the day, not being in breach of the Highway Code doesn’t really matter if you still end up seriously injured or worse.

Perhaps it’s because I have regularly been all kinds of road user over the years, from ped to cyclist to biker to car driver. But I never cease to be amazed at the appalling lack of situational awareness and complete lack of the most basic notion of self-preservation a very significant proportion of pedestrians in this country demonstrate. It’s almost as if they’re actually unaware of the existence of bicycles and motorbikes, despite having lived among them for their entire lives.

 

[edcraw]

As a motorcyclist, almost on every single journey. Sometimes one can spot them in advance, but other times they will literally materialise on the middle of the road squeezing past a van or lorry without ever bothering to look right for any two wheeled traffic travelling quite legally in the middle of the road. I am sure plenty of regular commuting cyclists routinely experience similar, whether when riding kerbside or in the middle of the road.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong or unreasonable about expecting pedestrians to at the very least look properly if they have unwisely decided to cross a busy road crammed with stationary cars, vans and lorries.

Of course there is a duty of care falling onto two wheelers too, and in fact if cyclists and bikers were as fucking careless as most pedestrians are, collisions and injuries would be twentyfold what they are now. But the bottom line is that it takes two to tango regardless of burden of responsibility based on vulnerability. If only because at the end of the day, not being in breach of the Highway Code doesn’t really matter if you still end up seriously injured or worse.

Perhaps it’s because I have regularly been all kinds of road user over the years, from ped to cyclist to biker to car driver. But I never cease to be amazed at the appalling lack of situational awareness and complete lack of the most basic notion of self-preservation a very significant proportion of pedestrians in this country demonstrate. It’s almost as if they’re actually unaware of the existence of bicycles and motorbikes, despite having lived among them for their entire lives.

So we need infrastructure.

I’m sure you also appreciate how bad motorcyclists can be towards cyclists. Speeding down bus lanes whilst narrowly overtaking, constantly stopping illegally in ASLs, accelerating aggressively away from lights etc etc

 

[Cid]

As a motorcyclist, almost on every single journey. Sometimes one can spot them in advance, but other times they will literally materialise on the middle of the road squeezing past a van or lorry without ever bothering to look right for any two wheeled traffic travelling quite legally in the middle of the road. I am sure plenty of regular commuting cyclists routinely experience similar, whether when riding kerbside or in the middle of the road.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong or unreasonable about expecting pedestrians to at the very least look properly if they have unwisely decided to cross a busy road crammed with stationary cars, vans and lorries.

Of course there is a duty of care falling onto two wheelers too, and in fact if cyclists and bikers were as fucking careless as most pedestrians are, collisions and injuries would be twentyfold what they are now. But the bottom line is that it takes two to tango regardless of burden of responsibility based on vulnerability. If only because at the end of the day, not being in breach of the Highway Code doesn’t really matter if you still end up seriously injured or worse.

Perhaps it’s because I have regularly been all kinds of road user over the years, from ped to cyclist to biker to car driver. But I never cease to be amazed at the appalling lack of situational awareness and complete lack of the most basic notion of self-preservation a very significant proportion of pedestrians in this country demonstrate. It’s almost as if they’re actually unaware of the existence of bicycles and motorbikes, despite having lived among them for their entire lives.

So... your objection here is that you'd like to filter more quickly and pay less attention? It's not just them 'not being in breach of the highway code', it specifically tells you to keep your speed low and look for emerging pedestrians when filtering. I honestly never found that much of an issue in 15 years of cycling through central London, including a year as a courier. Because I'd either make sure I had decent visibility, or be going slow enough to emergency stop in a very short distance. What annoyed me was pedestrians walking into fast moving cycle lanes, but that's an infrastructure problem (as is jaywalking). You get two options here; 1. introduce wide jaywalking laws, the US option, or 2. design better infrastructure, the places where it's nice to be something other than a driver option.