Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.

[platinumsage]

The M25. All cars banned within and streets pedestrianised.

It doesn't take more than 7 hours to walk to central London from anywhere within the M25, and it's never more than a 45 mile round trip. No one needs more than 2 hours sleep after an 8 hour working day so it should be doable.

I suppose lucky people could get trains for part of the journey, but with all streets being pedestrianised there won't be any buses, so there simply won't be enough rail capacity for most people.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Another good reason to ban cars

Tyre dust: the ‘stealth pollutant’ that’s becoming a huge threat to ocean life

Plastic in the depths: Scientists spent decades on the trail of a mystery toxin killing salmon en masse. A recent breakthrough revealed the culprit

www.theguardian.com

 

[edcraw]

It doesn't take more than 7 hours to walk to central London from anywhere within the M25, and it's never more than a 45 mile round trip. No one needs more than 2 hours sleep after an 8 hour working day so it should be doable.

I suppose lucky people could get trains for part of the journey, but with all streets being pedestrianised there won't be any buses, so there simply won't be enough rail capacity for most people.

Have you heard of the tube?

 

[kabbes]

Have you heard of the tube?

Have you heard of South London?

 

[platinumsage]

Have you heard of the tube?

I believe it’s actually a railway, which I did mention in my post.

 

[teuchter]

You know, like how people generate noise when doing their day-to-day activities, and how some people are disturbed by noise, so we have a reasonable compromise where limits are placed on noise above which it might be declared a statutory nuisance and enforcement measures used.

Or how people want to modify their home, and how some people might be adversely affected by such modifications, so we have a reasonable compromise in planning law which where limits are placed on development.

With these sorts of things people can disagree about the limits of reasonableness, but the general principal is one of balancing competing interests.

Maybe the same sort of thing applies to transportation and car use. Maybe some sort of reasonable compromise is the only reasonable thing that can be done, and just as we wouldn't ban all noise or outlaw all building, we won't ban all car use, except in the fevered minds of sandal-weaving LibDem Kim Jong-un aping fantasists.

We should bear in mind that the term "reasonable compromise" was in this case typed by someone who wants to introduce jaywalking as an offence in the UK.

 

[platinumsage]

We should bear in mind that the term "reasonable compromise" was in this case typed by someone who wants to introduce jaywalking as an offence in the UK.

Typical North Korean style lies. I guess that means you’ve lost the argument, maybe ask a mod to close the thread?

 

[edcraw]

I believe it’s actually a railway, which I did mention in my post.

Such a yokel.

Okay - if not the M25 let’s compromise at the north & south circular.

 

[platinumsage]

Such a yokel.

Okay - if not the M25 let’s compromise at the north & south circular.

Pedestrianising everything within the M25 would be fine. Most employers and residents would move out to the rest of the country, where travel by car would unrestricted. This would be fantastic for everywhere except London, which would gradually decay into a crime-ridden wasteland.

 

[edcraw]

Pedestrianising everything within the M25 would be fine. Most employers and residents would move out to the rest of the country, where travel by car would unrestricted. This would be fantastic for everywhere except London, which would gradually decay into a crime-ridden wasteland.

Okay - let’s give it a go then. Personal think it’s a bit extreme and we should allow buses though.

 

[platinumsage]

Okay - let’s give it a go then. Personal think it’s a bit extreme and we should allow buses though.

No point in buses if no one can deliver food and supplies to businesses and other institutions such as hospitals and schools. I suppose people could use hand-carts from the home counties but if the carters are paid a living wage it would become prohibitively expensive.

 

[edcraw]

No point in buses if no one can deliver food and supplies to businesses and other institutions such as hospitals and schools. I suppose people could use hand-carts from the home counties but if the carters are paid a living wage it would become prohibitively expensive.

Oh alright - you win. Just a ban on private cars then. Feel I’ve had to compromise a lot but if we’re both happy…

 

[platinumsage]

Oh alright - you win. Just a ban on private cars then. Feel I’ve had to compromise a lot but if we’re both happy…

So you'd be happy to allow cars and vans to zoom about London's pedestrianised streets, provided that they're operated by corporations and not regular individuals? I don't know what kind of dystopia you're trying to advocate, but it seems a decidedly capitalist one.

 

[edcraw]

So you'd be happy to allow cars and vans to zoom about London's pedestrianised streets, provided that they're operated by corporations and not regular individuals? I don't know what kind of dystopia you're trying to advocate, but it seems a decidedly capitalist one.

It’s all about compromise to get something Tories like you will agree with.

 

[teuchter]

It's a shame that the concept of partially pedestrianised urban areas with limited and controlled access for certain types of vehicles has never been tried anywhere. It's a mad idea though so I suppose that's why.

 

[platinumsage]

It's a shame that the concept of partially pedestrianised urban areas with limited and controlled access for certain types of vehicles has never been tried anywhere. It's a mad idea though so I suppose that's why.

Sure, we already have that in all our cities, but only across readily walkable distances. Apparently for London in needs to be implemented across the 1100 square miles inside the M25, so restricting access to corporations would be unreasonable, unless of course you're some sort of misanthrope.

 

[teuchter]

Sure, we already have that in all our cities, but only across readily walkable distances. Apparently for London in needs to be implemented across the 2,600 square miles inside the M25, so restricting access to corporations would be unreasonable, unless of course you're some sort of misanthrope.

It's a shame that we couldn't make public transport vehicles one of the types of vehicles that could be granted access because that would mean we wouldn't be limited to walkable distances but again this is a completely mad idea that's never been tried anywhere in the world so we'd better just allow private cars everywhere and give up.

 

[platinumsage]

It's a shame that we couldn't make public transport vehicles one of the types of vehicles that could be granted access because that would mean we wouldn't be limited to walkable distances but again this is a completely mad idea that's never been tried anywhere in the world so we'd better just allow private cars everywhere and give up.

It's been tried in Oxford Street but I believe lots of people are against it as buses are so dangerous to pedestrians.

 

[teuchter]

It's been tried in Oxford Street but I believe lots of people are against it as buses are so dangerous to pedestrians.

Yes, Oxford Street is the only place in the world the concept has been tried and some people don't like it therefore the whole thing is totally unworkable anywhere, we should give up and continue living in a car dominated dystopian nightmare.

 

[platinumsage]

Yes, Oxford Street is the only place in the world the concept has been tried and some people don't like it therefore the whole thing is totally unworkable anywhere, we should give up and continue living in a car dominated dystopian nightmare.

I would have thought that London might be amenable to the addition of pedestrianized areas in much the same way as other cities have been. For example Norwich, where the centre is pedestrianised, but not the entire 36 square miles within the outer ring road.

London even has multiple urban centres, which should allow various pedestrianisation schemes to be rolled out, but, like other cities, without rendering the entire city untravelable as a blanket intra-M25 scheme would do.

 

[maomao]

I would have thought that London might be amenable to the addition of pedestrianized areas in much the same way as other cities have been. For example Norwich, where the centre is pedestrianised, but not the entire 36 square miles within the outer ring road.

London even has multiple urban centres, which should allow various pedestrianisation schemes to be rolled out, but, like other cities, without rendering the entire city untravelable as a blanket intra-M25 scheme would do.

I live in zone six of London with no car and London doesn't feel very untravelable. How is getting rid of private cars going to make it untravelable for everyone else? It'll make it easier for me.

 

[platinumsage]

I live in zone six of London with no car and London doesn't feel very untravelable. How is getting rid of private cars going to make it untravelable for everyone else? It'll make it easier for me.

The original proposal was to ban road vehicles, so you'd have had to walk or else compete for the train with all the other former bus and car and bicycle users. This would have reduced pedestrian road deaths to zero or thereabouts. Then someone else moved the goalposts and said it would nice to have all the roads within the M25 pedestriansed provided the pedestrians could be run over by buses, taxis, delivery drivers, and anyone driving a vehicle while working for a private company. If that's what you guys in London want then go ahead I guess, I'll get my popcorn ready.

 

[teuchter]

I would have thought that London might be amenable to the addition of pedestrianized areas in much the same way as other cities have been. For example Norwich, where the centre is pedestrianised, but not the entire 36 square miles within the outer ring road.

Maybe you should keep an eye on the Berlin campaign for a car free zone of about that size, 88 square km or 34 square miles.

eine autofreie Berliner Innenstadt … wie geht das?

Unser Ziel ist eine flächengerechte, gesunde, sichere, lebenswerte sowie klima- und umweltfreundliche Nutzung der öffentlichen Straßen in Berlin. Da die Politiker*innen aus unserer Sicht dafür nicht die nötigen Maßnahmen ergreifen, müssen wir unsere Ziele direktdemokratisch per Volksentscheid...

volksentscheid-berlin-autofrei.de

 

[platinumsage]

Maybe you should keep an eye on the Berlin campaign for a car free zone of about that size, 88 square km or 34 square miles.

eine autofreie Berliner Innenstadt … wie geht das?

Unser Ziel ist eine flächengerechte, gesunde, sichere, lebenswerte sowie klima- und umweltfreundliche Nutzung der öffentlichen Straßen in Berlin. Da die Politiker*innen aus unserer Sicht dafür nicht die nötigen Maßnahmen ergreifen, müssen wir unsere Ziele direktdemokratisch per Volksentscheid...

volksentscheid-berlin-autofrei.de

That's only around 10% of Berlin's area, whereas it would be 100% of Norwich's, so not really comparable.

I don't think anyone objects to the central core of cities being pedestriansed, otherwise it wouldn't have already happened in virtually every UK city.

Pedestrianising an entire city, where that city is so large that it can't be reasonably walked, would require so many exemptions and additional buses and taxis as to be worse than useless.

 

[maomao]

The original proposal was to ban road vehicles

No it wasn't.

 

[platinumsage]

No it wasn't.

You must be using some weird definition of "pedestrianise"

 

[maomao]

You must be using some weird definition of "pedestrianise"

I mean where pedestrians have access to the whole street but provision remains for emergency vehicles, deliveries and public transport. What needlessly pedantic definition are you using?

 

[platinumsage]

I mean where pedestrians have access to the whole street but provision remains for emergency vehicles, deliveries and public transport

That's not pedestrianisation, it's simply restricting certain types of vehicle.

Pedestrianisation -

Chambers: to convert (a shopping street, etc) into an area for pedestrians only by excluding through-traffic and usually paving over the street.
Collins: to convert (a street) into an area for the use of pedestrians only, by excluding all motor vehicles
Cambridge: to make an area into one where vehicles are not allowed to go

I don't know what the OED says but I doubt it's "to prevent privately owned cars from accessing a street"

 

[teuchter]

Pedestrianising an entire city, where that city is so large that it can't be reasonably walked, would require so many exemptions and additional buses and taxis as to be worse than useless.

As I said earlier, such a shame there are no examples of such a thing working perfectly well, anywhere. So you must be right.

 

[maomao]

That's not pedestrianisation, it's simply restricting certain types of vehicle.

Pedestrianisation -

Chambers: to convert (a shopping street, etc) into an area for pedestrians only by excluding through-traffic and usually paving over the street.
Collins: to convert (a street) into an area for the use of pedestrians only, by excluding all motor vehicles
Cambridge: to make an area into one where vehicles are not allowed to go

I don't know what the OED says but I doubt it's "to prevent privately owned cars from accessing a street"

Well Chambers' is almost servicable but the other two are clearly wrong. I've yet to hear of a pedestrianisation scheme that excludes ambulances and fire engines. I'm not sure that the Cambridge dictionary is a proper dictionary with full-time lexicographers etc. anyway; it's some sort of language-learning thing.