Energy Prices: Don't Pay Campaign
- Thread starter chilango
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chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
I've signed up to be an organiser (waiting on stickers & posters arriving). There's a national zoom Thursday 28th 7pm, anyone else attending?
Also there's a Telegram thing for updates (I need to set up a Telegram account).
So far the map's not showing anyone else near me that's involved, I'll try and drum up some interest. I live in a village of about 2,000. Hopefully some folk I know will want to join in. It's good people are keen where you are Red Sky & LDC
Also there's a Telegram thing for updates (I need to set up a Telegram account).
So far the map's not showing anyone else near me that's involved, I'll try and drum up some interest. I live in a village of about 2,000. Hopefully some folk I know will want to join in. It's good people are keen where you are Red Sky & LDC
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
He at least outlines his views and the thinking behind them - even though i think him wrong on the non-payment front. And I'm not persuaded that a succession of riots over fuel will win the day. I think a great explosion of anger is coming in which fuel and food prices will play a part: if it comes we'll see how it plays out
It's just thoughtlessly tossed out bollocks. Everyone's too middle class and individualistic to do a boycott so we'll get them riot instead. Brilliant.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Blah, blah, identity politics.... riot... middle class... meh. It's shit and lazy criticism, nothing worth thinking about in there tbh.
Saying what won the Poll Tax was the riots not the mass non-payment is just wrong isn't it? It was both, and there's no way that the former would have happened without the later. The non-payment local groups provided much of the groundwork for building up the movement that led to the riots, and then it provided a longer term support for the fall-out from them. Plus it gave people the feeling they weren't alone, built confidence, gave a mix of people stuff they could do, etc. All this calling non-payment individualistic bollocks is also just missing the point, it's an attempt to get away from that by a collective refusal. Anyway, I could go on...
Saying what won the Poll Tax was the riots not the mass non-payment is just wrong isn't it? It was both, and there's no way that the former would have happened without the later. The non-payment local groups provided much of the groundwork for building up the movement that led to the riots, and then it provided a longer term support for the fall-out from them. Plus it gave people the feeling they weren't alone, built confidence, gave a mix of people stuff they could do, etc. All this calling non-payment individualistic bollocks is also just missing the point, it's an attempt to get away from that by a collective refusal. Anyway, I could go on...
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
From an email I got:
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You've gone on quite enough tbh. Local groups varied very much in a) when they were set up; b) their longevity; c) their politics and d) their effectiveness. I don't think there's the link you suggest between local groups and riots or between riots and local groups.
My first involvement with the poll tax post riot was a public meeting called to set up a local group, where from a packed hall only three remained to do the work, me, a stalinist and a Trot. So certainly where I lived at the time the riots didn't bring a ton of activists in. In Hackney where there was a big riot in front of the town hall (somewhere I have some pictures Fozzie Bear) there wasn't a longstanding group as there was in Haringey or Camden, perhaps because at the time half the population of the borough moved each year.
The only reason there was any support for the fallout from the 31.3.90 and 20.10.90 riots was tsdc, the trafalgar square defendants campaign, for which dave morris out of the mclibel 2 was a great force. I don't know of any support organised for people nicked in front of town halls, I never saw any information on the people jailed for it or discussion in anti-poll tax groups I was involved in. I don't think the information was ever gathered or acted on. If you know anything different I'd be very interested to know.
For me a great part of what toppled thatcher was the spring of poll tax riots. But what broke the poll tax was non-payment and the government decision to lower bills by £140 (£136 in Wandsworth) announced in March 1991. Although vat was put up 2.5% to pay for it. But at that point, when the decision to abolish was announced, you lost fuck loads of people from the apt movement. The swp had pulled put before that. But many areas hardly had local groups. I remember having a great list of London groups and phoning round them for London fight the poll tax and speaking to someone from Sutton.
But many areas had a group more in name only. And although there were calls for an amnesty for poll tax non-payment and the debts to be written off that never happened. As time went on anti-poll tax groups dissolved even though court cases and bailiff action continued. In the final year of the poll tax being levied, 93/94, can't have been many groups supporting non-payment left. But it was years after that that council's stopped chasing the money.
It's always nice to see a big win. But the poll tax wasn't won on 31 march 90. It wasn't the riots that win it. It was the extent of opposition shown through non-payment and the way that in that year, 90/91, people refused to pay.
So yeh Martin's called this one wrong for me. But it's also wrong to see local groups providing the impetus for the riots across the board and local groups providing support for the fallout after. Many local groups were short-term coalitions of activists and where Haringey became a solidarity group, moves to do the same in Camden foundered when only a few anarchists wanted to do that and almost all the Marxists were against it. But the role of militant and the swp deserves fuller investigation because for their own sectarian reasons they tried to undermine groups of other political hues where they couldn't control them.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Good discussion. Pickman's model there appears to have been support for people arrested at the riot outside Hackney Town hall from Hackney Community Defence Association.
Obviously I agree with most people here that non-payment of the poll tax was a key factor as well as riots.
Non-payment then could be made less individualistic through things like people gathering together to burn their bills, which happened in Clissold Park. (It’s harder to do this with an email or direct debit!)
And also regular street stalls where people could discuss what was happening.
Obviously I agree with most people here that non-payment of the poll tax was a key factor as well as riots.
Non-payment then could be made less individualistic through things like people gathering together to burn their bills, which happened in Clissold Park. (It’s harder to do this with an email or direct debit!)
And also regular street stalls where people could discuss what was happening.
These things are in the pipeline for Don't Pay I believe.
However as a campaign there's a hurdle to clear that wasn't there for the Poll Tax, which is convincing people that the price rises aren't natural and inevitable but rooted in profit.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Just look over the channel! The pious words about inflation from Truss and sunak won't be worth much in the autumn if the great rise for energy comes in. That'll put some fire under prices. It's a political decision to allow the prices to rise so, no doubt influenced by the tories' friends in the energy sector.
I know this, it's feedback from talking to people.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh I haven't found the same hurdle and cannot always tell what you know
teqniq
DisMembered
Herein lies the major part of the problem:
www.independent.co.uk
www.theguardian.com
I get the impression from this that he is actually not given to hysteria but is actually genuinely worried:
British Gas owner Centrica profits increase five-fold as energy bills soar
Company reinstates dividend after suspending it for three years
www.independent.co.uk
Biden says US economic slowdown due to Fed inflation-fighting measures – as it happened
US president says growth affected by moves to tackle inflation as US enters technical recession
I get the impression from this that he is actually not given to hysteria but is actually genuinely worried:
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
The reasonable middle ground in this debate is to both organise in non-payment community groups spiced up with some old fashioned civil unrest.
When this level greed filters through to a critical mass of people unable to pay their bills it’s definitely going to kick off.
The spanner in the works is Patel’s newish anti-protest powers. What impact will they have?
When this level greed filters through to a critical mass of people unable to pay their bills it’s definitely going to kick off.
The spanner in the works is Patel’s newish anti-protest powers. What impact will they have?
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Some,
But less that the fact that the police would be hard pushed to cope with protracted and dispersed disorder . Whilst the one in five cops disposed of by Cameron and May are ,ever so slowly being replaced, numbers are still way down. Also a workforce that in some places is seeing the response function, so the initial police response, at 70% (or in some places even 80% of officers with less than three years experience). The fucking about with rest days and shift patterns and overtime means far less of the new rozzers want to do public order training (why risk losing their one weekend off in five when they don't get paid anymore, just swapped for a Tuesday and Thursday six months later) besides, you need to be a least 40 now to have the right licence to drive the carriers (riot vans) and of course the agents of the state don't pay for people to go off and do the three day course to get the licence - probably in case the cops that get it, resign and go off to drive mini-busses for more money...
Add into the mix that many senior cops don't want to risk their careers by going anywhere near public order command, where errors, lack of decision making and bad luck can be seen immediately unlike if you focus on corporate change and engagement... and you have a position where quite a lot of smaller forces can't staff a command cadre rota...
Fold in fantastic PFI and other ace accountancy decisions meaning world class state of the art training rigs are sitting empty half the time whilst elsewhere riot rozzers are training by running round and round the same six shipping containers on an airfield somewhere having old parquet flooring thrown at them by bored colleagues and it adds to the fun. Apparently
There are still public order trained cops and commanders of course, but meeting the national mobilisation commitments is getting harder and doing it with experienced people is getting really hard.
The last two PMs probably had a more vicarial and personal hatred for the old bill than many posters on on here and so tried to break it. Bojo and Patel don't really care either way. If there is wide spread protracted disorder its not going to be pretty.
Apparently, many senior ex rozzers are well glad to be out of it all and living off their gold plated pensions...
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Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Herein lies the major part of the problem:
British Gas owner Centrica profits increase five-fold as energy bills soar
Company reinstates dividend after suspending it for three years
Biden says US economic slowdown due to Fed inflation-fighting measures – as it happened
US president says growth affected by moves to tackle inflation as US enters technical recession
I get the impression from this that he is actually not given to hysteria but is actually genuinely worried:
Martin is appealing to capitalism to solve capitalism. Shame.
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
I'm on this zoom now, if anyone else is? Intro meeting for campaigners, 200 attending. 6,000 have signed up to the campaign so far.
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
20,000 have signed up now and it's doubling in a week (must have misheard the 6,000 earlier).
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Katie Hopkins is urging her fans to join!
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
Yeah, they mentioned that. And said we're gonna have to be not left, not right, but united on a single issue.
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
Swallow your distaste basically.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I do find that hard.... I can cope with people with different ideas etc. I just wish they wouldn't try and bulldoze them into everything...
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
Last thing the person organising said, was that the number of people signed up to the campaign had gone up by 2,00 during the last hour while the meeting's been on.
I found that quite good. Useful to know how it's gonna work, and hear some of the ideas people had (the ones that were sensible).
I found that quite good. Useful to know how it's gonna work, and hear some of the ideas people had (the ones that were sensible).
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
People do like to take things off track, and blow their own particular trumpet, their own pet projects. Twas ever thus I suppose. Dunno why people don't agree to keep the aim narrow & focus on just achieving that. Instead of world peace or whatever 
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