Egypt anti-government protests grow

[goldenecitrone]

I doubt the Egyptians would want any kind of government that would fuck up the tourist industry for them.

 

[elbows]

This is now a revolution.

Im not sure Id go quite that far yet. Tend to hold back on the term revolution till progress has reached a stage that things will never be the same, and Egypt is not near that point yet I dont think. An uprising or rebellion at an early stage, that could still go one way or another pretty quickly, or slowly.

 

[dylans]

Spiegel has again published some fantastic pictures of todays events

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-63934.html

 

[dylans]

Im not sure Id go quite that far yet. Tend to hold back on the term revolution till progress has reached a stage that things will never be the same, and Egypt is not near that point yet I dont think. An uprising or rebellion at an early stage, that could still go one way or another pretty quickly, or slowly.

Have you been following the news from Suez? It's a fucking war zone with live fire being used. (I would have agreed with your post last night but now. I think there is no turning back now)

 

[butchersapron]

Unless they can not only neutralise but turn significant sections of the 1.6 million security serves members as appears (i say appears on purpose) as in Tunisia.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Im not sure Id go quite that far yet. Tend to hold back on the term revolution till progress has reached a stage that things will never be the same, and Egypt is not near that point yet I dont think. An uprising or rebellion at an early stage, that could still go one way or another pretty quickly, or slowly.

Indeed!

 

[scooter]

Often comes down to what the army decide to do.

Wonder what effect it would have on the Palestinian situation if they actually manage to kick out Mubarak and install a democratic government.

 

[dylans]

Reports that the army have moved into Suez. Journos barred from the city and dozens dead.

 

[dylans]

Often comes down to what the army decide to do.

Wonder what effect it would have on the Palestinian situation if they actually manage to kick out Mubarak and install a democratic government.

It would be great news for Palestine. An immediate end to the siege of Gaza and an end to a collaborationist regime.

 

[elbows]

Have you been following the news from Suez? It's a fucking war zone with live fire being used. (I would have agreed with your post last night but now. I think there is no turning back now)

Tragically history is littered with the corpses of those who have rebelled but revolution didnt follow.

I would expect that the regime in Egypt have gotten away with worse in the past. Whether they can get away with it this time remains to be seen.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Reports that the army have moved into Suez. Journos barred from the city and dozens dead.

Poor bastards. I hope they string Mubarak up from a lamppost in the near future.

 

[scooter]

Now would be a good time for the US to drop hints about a reduction in aid if there's any shooting of demonstrators

 

[butchersapron]

"Footage at the Suez morgue where protesters tried to retrieve fellow bodies... the city is on fire"

[video]http://www.mayomo.com/95044[/video]

 

[scooter]

It would be great news for Palestine. An immediate end to the siege of Gaza and an end to a collaborationist regime.

Not sure about that. But it might make a negotiated solution a lot more likely. May make it harder for Israel to resist coming to a deal when they're talking to another democracy.

 

[dylans]

Not sure about that. But it might make a negotiated solution a lot more likely. May make it harder for Israel to resist coming to a deal when they're talking to another democracy.

Any representative regime would never collude with the siege of Gaza as Mubarak does.

 

[lizzieloo]

The awful music is awful but there is a guy in the middle of this (among others)...

We will not be silent. if you are a Christian, a Muslim or an atheist. You will demand your god damn rights! And we will have our rights, one way or the other!

that makes it worth keeping the sound on.



I think what dylans said earlier about these protestors being about Egyptians and not about religion rings true.

There are "powers" in the world that want us all to believe that this is about Islamists, I put that down to propaganda.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Unless they can not only neutralise but turn significant sections of the 1.6 million security serves members as appears (i say appears on purpose) as in Tunisia.

Honest question and I promise not to derail the thread by answering you in any way but what do you mean by the bit in brackets?

 

[butchersapron]

Honest question and I promise not to derail the thread by answering you in any way but what do you mean by the bit in brackets?

Just that that those who now have the reins of the state made a decision for the army to clear out the police and the hold-outs and were happy for it to be portrayed a simple army defends the people type scenario - which isn't to say that much of the army did view what they were doing in those terms, just that the tops were quite happy to see potential troublesome elements gone in that process.

 

[butchersapron]

Some stuff from suez:

The Al Arbin is witnessing some sort of war, the police reportedly is using live ammunition and the citizens are using rocks and Molotov bottles. Just today another citizen of Suez is reportedly killed by the live ammunition of the security forces according to Masrawy.com and 90 are injured according to Al Shorouk News.

The citizens have reportedly set the Arbin police station and NDP HQ on fire , attacked physically the head of Suez Security directorate along other 3 police generals and are currently encircling the city’s morgue. The police as I hinted is using live ammunition and started to target houses and shops using tear gas grenades

Again the people of Suez are suffering from terrible economic conditions as the factories owners there started to use cheap Asian labor instead of them creating a huge unemployment problem in the city. We are speaking about thousands without a job in a city. Suez has very strong history when it comes to fight , the IDF tried to invade the city several times and failed. Also many of the families in the Arbin quarter have roots in Upper Egypt , they do not give their rights easily.

Another thing , an important fact we all should know the army was not and has not been deployed there , the third army of Egypt is already stationed there and yes up till it is neutral and another important fact you all must know the police and CSF wear uniforms close to the army’s uniforms outside Cairo.

 

[lizzieloo]

Do you know about conscription to the police force in Egypt?

I read this earlier

Just to be clear: The simple police soldiers (foot soldiers) are drafted. i.e. They dont have a choice to join the police. It is all part of the obiligatory national service on all uneducated Egyptians. If you don't finish school or illiterate you are forced to join the police for at least 3 years by law. No choice here.

 

[Casually Red]

Now would be a good time for the US to drop hints about a reduction in aid if there's any shooting of demonstrators

why on earth would they do that when if Mubarak is ousted their interests are in tatters in the entire region ?

history , from Lebanon to Gaza to Chile , to Tianenmen square, to Indonesia and east timor tells us its usually the US and one of its Kissinger types who greenlight the massacre beforehand .

 

[Dan U]

Suez sounds pretty grim. I hope they topple the cunts

 

[scooter]

Any representative regime would never collude with the siege of Gaza as Mubarak does.

No but there would still be pressure put on them (by US and Israel) not to allow weapons through.

I think you're not thinking big enough. If Egypt changes government then the whole situation changes. The Gaza siege could end because it will no longer be necessary because we no longer have an intransigent dictatorship in play. I dunno, just speculating.

 

[dylans]

From Suez

 

[dylans]

No but there would still be pressure put on them (by US and Israel) not to allow weapons through.

I think you're not thinking big enough. If Egypt changes government then the whole situation changes. The Gaza siege could end because it will no longer be necessary because we no longer have an intransigent dictatorship in play. I dunno, just speculating.

No it's very simple. The Egyptian collaboration with Israel is hated by ordinary Egyptians and is only possible because Mubarak is a dictator. If he falls and any kind of representative government replaces it then it will (should) represent the wishes of Egyptians in regard to the siege which is deeply unpopular. Remember Egypt is very pro-active in enforcing the siege. It has just built a massive steel underground barrier to prevent tunnels. A post Mubarak regime would have to end that if it represented the will of the Egyptian people.

 

[ymu]

Edited because I missed a bunch of posts

No it's very simple. The Egyptian collaboration with Israel is hated by ordinary Egyptians and is only possible because Mubarak is a dictator. If he falls and any kind of representative government replaces it then it will (should) represent the wishes of Egyptians in regard to the siege which is deeply unpopular. Remember Egypt is very pro-active in enforcing the siege. It has just built a massive steel underground barrier to prevent tunnels. A post Mubarak regime would have to end that if it represented the will of the Egyptian people.

He's right that Israel and the US will fight any reopening though. As will the PA (if they are still in power by the time this is relevant).

And it won't just be weapons they won't let through. The PA urged Israel and the US to do more to seal off everything. Starve Hamas out of power. They won't just let it happen.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Dylans is right. It's quite simple, Mubarak falls and everything changes in the middle east. In some ways Egypt is the most important country in the region, size of the working class etc, no disrespect to the Tunisian revolution!

 

[scooter]

You could be right but again I don't think you're seeing the big picture. If the egyptian government falls then the whole situation changes. The whole Palestinian battle could end because it gets resolved. With a democracy on either side it may be impossible to keep it going.

Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist but whereas you seem to see an intensification of the battle, I see an end to it because the big picture has changed. The situation as it has pertained for the last few decades will have changed completely.

And ymu, i know which border.

 

[dylans]

scooter;You could be right but again I don't think you're seeing the big picture. If the egyptian government falls then the whole situation changes. The whole Palestinian battle could end because it gets resolved. With a democracy on either side it may be impossible to keep it going.

Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist but whereas you seem to see an intensification of the battle, I see an end to it because the big picture has changed. The situation as it has pertained for the last few decades will have changed completely.

Well no because Israel is still in occupation of Palestinian land. That won't change. What will change is that Israel will lose their Arab collaborator with Mubarak and very possibly face a pro Palestinian regime on its doorstep. At the very least they will lose an active partner in their crimes. There is an excellent article in the guardian about Egypts role as collaborator here

The main protagonist of the siege, Israel, controls only three sides of the Strip. Without Egypt, which polices the fourth, it would be ineffective. But, having tolerated the tunnels that have saved Gazans from utter beggary, the Cairo regime is now building a deep underground steel wall – known as the "wall of shame" to many Egyptians – under close US supervision, to make the blockade complete.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/07/egypt-gaza-strip-viva-palestin

 

[teqniq]

Interesting times.