Egypt anti-government protests grow

[elbows]

Instead from the Brotherhood we get straight-out supporter clashes, plus essentially innocent targets almost specifically designed for a counter-reaction.

In addition to those, they chose two targets that are more like the sort of places you need to go to confront a coup directly: The location where Morsi was rumoured to be held, and that bloody state TV building that the opposition to Mubarak sometimes targeted ineffectively back in the day. But they didn't manage to do anything much once they got there.

They would have gotten many, many more a year ago, don't you think.

They could get more votes a year ago, and they could be part of larger protests that went well beyond core MB membership. But what I'm talking about is their ability to get large enough crowds in urban areas to make a difference. At no point since the uprising against Mubarak began have I really had the sense that they can actually take the streets on their own. The can unleash relatively small violent mobs to attack equally small demonstrations or kill minorities, but not enough to change the wider political situation as best I can tell, other than shooting themselves in the foot. OK quite a lot swarmed across that bridge yesterday, but then what happened? If they can't do more than this in the immediate aftermath of a coup against their president then I'll stick to the idea that their street capabilities have been hyped.

 

[sihhi]

I would have thought that in a country like Egypt the military circle would be controlling most of the important industries in Egypt so would also compose a significant component Corporate elite (i.e. the capitalists). I also would have though that the religious elite, controlling the muslim brotherhood and their allies, can be differentiated from that. I suppose that elite would be "anti-capitalist" as far as the corporate-military elite counteracted their interest. In other words, if they were not anti-capitalist, they will be increasingly so as long as they are excluded from positions of influence.

The military circle don't control most of the important industries in Egypt, only some, the important industries are shared amongst a network of groups and alliances but there is a secular vs Brotherhood dimension in ownership. Sometimes the secular drift into and are absorbed by firms allied to the Brotherhood.

 

[elbows]

If they can't do more than this in the immediate aftermath of a coup against their president then I'll stick to the idea that their street capabilities have been hyped.

And I make this observation in part because during the uprising against Mubarak there was the very understandable suggestion that the MB were holding back on the streets. But unless they can pull off something soon I'll be inclined to think that some of the perceived MB street potential wasn't held back against Mubarak, it simply didn't exist. At least not in Cairo.

 

[elbows]

El Blah Blah is now PM. Rejoice.

 

[sihhi]

In addition to those, they chose two targets that are more like the sort of places you need to go to confront a coup directly: The location where Morsi was rumoured to be held, and that bloody state TV building that the opposition to Mubarak sometimes targeted ineffectively back in the day. But they didn't manage to do anything much once they got there.

State TV was a weak target leading the nonMBs to think along 'what are they protesting? that it go back revert to giving pro-MB guff?' lines.
The bid to break out Morsi from house arrest was more successful on a propaganda scale.
Few protests outside other police stations or army facilities. We will see I guess.

 

[sihhi]

And I make this observation in part because during the uprising against Mubarak there was the very understandable suggestion that the MB were holding back on the streets. But unless they can pull off something soon I'll be inclined to think that some of the perceived MB street potential wasn't held back against Mubarak, it simply didn't exist. At least not in Cairo.

But didn't they join very very late anyway.

Lots of Egyptians said they didn't mobilise all out against Mubarak and they certainly started opposing protests against SCAF

 

[elbows]

State TV was a weak target leading the nonMBs to think along 'what are they protesting? that it go back revert to giving pro-MB guff?' lines./quote]


Did state TV actually give much MB guff during Morsi's time? It certainly gave a lot of pro-Mubarak and pro-military guff back in the day but I don't know as its allegiances really shifted over to Morsi since various parts of the state never really got behind him.

Its certainly not a weak target if you are trying to undo a coup or topple a regime, should anyone seriously tried to storm it in sufficient numbers. The regime and army were always quick to protect it in the past in stark contrast to the security vacuum they often allowed to develop elsewhere.

 

[elbows]

But didn't they join very very late anyway.

Lots of Egyptians said they didn't mobilise all out against Mubarak and they certainly started opposing protests against SCAF

The official MB barely joined it at all, which is why I'm now interested in how many people they can get on the streets under circumstances where they have far fewer reasons to sit on the sidelines.

Back in the day the MB members who were on the streets against Mubarak and then against SCAF were though to at least in part demonstrate a generation gap, with those members not having a convenient relationship with Mubarak & Co like the MB leadership did on certain levels.

 

[sihhi]

Yes it barely covered anti-Brotherhood activities towards the end.
Article about coverage of the protests on Friday of 21 June. State newspapers were different

Muslim Brotherhood and Islamist demonstrators gathered in a massive rally on Friday to support the president against expected mass protests slated for next week. The event received generous coverage on Egyptian television, while parallel counter-rallies by the opposition were largely ignored.

Maspero employees attempted to explain to Abdel-Aziz that opposition protests, too, especially one held at the Ministry of Defence, must also be covered, according to El-Wakil. He added, however, that he had been snubbed by Abdel-Aziz, who insisted that his initial instructions be followed.

According to Al-Ahram, El-Wakil said that the head of news at Maspero did not come to work on Saturday to protest alleged interference by the presidency.

 

[elbows]

Ta, I will look into that some more when I find time.

Meanwhile here is Sabahi's response to recent events. Rather unsurprisingly its the same stuff that everyone else has been spouting, slightly tweaked to include accusations that the MB were in cahoots with those dastardly Americans. And he backed ElBaradei for PM.

http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-left-leader-backs-military-role-sees-short-213911548.html

 

[Poo Flakes]

The military circle don't control most of the important industries in Egypt, only some, the important industries are shared amongst a network of groups and alliances but there is a secular vs Brotherhood dimension in ownership. Sometimes the secular drift into and are absorbed by firms allied to the Brotherhood.

What are the important industries? Surely the military elites and their families were the chief beneficiaries of all the privatisations during Mubarak's era?

 

[butchersapron]

What are the important industries? Surely the military elites and their families were the chief beneficiaries of all the privatisations during Mubarak's era?

Are the muslim brothers capitalists? If so why identify the military as the capitalists?

 

[Poo Flakes]

It is an interesting question. To be fair, I could be wrong. I am assuming the military elites and their friends and allies were the beneficiaries of privatisations of state controlled industries.

 

[butchersapron]

It is an interesting question. To be fair, I could be wrong. I am assuming the military elites and their friends and allies were the beneficiaries of privatisations of state controlled industries.

They might well have been? But what does that say about who are the capitalists?

 

[elbows]

If there is any truth to this article then it doesn't exactly stamp on the idea that this is a counter-revolution:

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCon...si,-Brotherhood-leaders-to-be-interrogat.aspx

Egypt's prosecutor-general orders the questioning of deposed president Mohamed Morsi, along with top Brotherhood members on suspicions of a range of crimes during Egypt's 2011 revolution.

A judicial source reveals to Ahram Online that the interrogations will be over charges of inciting violence, murdering police officers, hiring snipers to kill protesters, as well as ‪torching headquarters of the then-ruling National Democratic Party (NDP).

Brotherhood leaders will also be questioned on their alleged role in engineering attacks on police stations and prisons – with the help of members from Lebanese Shia group Hezbollah, Palestinian group Hamas and Sinai Bedouins – during the 2011 revolution, after which the movement was catapulted into the centre of political stage.

However as some other recent articles from that publication mention, a lot of these threats may be more about 'encouraging' the MB leadership to cut deals for themselves and not seriously contemplate trying to undo the coup. Either way the restoration of the MB as bogeymen for all occasions has already been stretched even beyond my expectations.

 

[Poo Flakes]

They might well have been? But what does that say about who are the capitalists?

I suspect the religious elites in Egypt do not derive their wealth or power from owning large industries.

 

[butchersapron]

I suspect the religious elites in Egypt do not derive their wealth or power from owning large industries.

Is that what you think capitalists are? Why are you avoiding the question in this way? Does this help anyone?

 

[Poo Flakes]

I would have thought that the muslim brotherhood derive money through principles such as zakat. This money is then spent on a range of programs designed to bolster its standing in the community.

 

[butchersapron]

I would have thought that the muslim brotherhood derive money through principles such as zakat. This money is then spent on a range of programs designed to bolster its standing in the community.

I didn't ask you how they make their own private money. I asked you why you called the military the capitalists and were you suggesting that the Muslim brotherhood is not capitalist and wasn't acting in a pro-capitalist manner. Why have you weaseled out of answering? Either you believe the muslim brothers are capitalists or you don't. Just answer.

 

[Poo Flakes]

If my assumptions are correct, I would make a distinction between the religious and corporate elites. Based on these assumptions I suspect they are not capitalists. They may invest some capital under islamic banking principles but I doubt these enterprises are all that profitable and therefore sufficient for them to be classed as a capitalist enterprise (as much as you could call those micro-loan charities 'capitalists'). I might be wrong, it would be interesting to see how the financial services is structured in Egypt and who owns what.

 

[butchersapron]

If my assumptions are correct, I would make a distinction between the religious and corporate elites. Based on these assumptions I suspect they are not capitalists. They may deploy capital under islamic banking principles but I doubt these enterprises are all that profitable and therefore sufficient for them to be classed as a capitalist enterprise (as much as you could call those micro-loan charities 'capitalists'). I might be wrong, it would be interesting to see how the financial services is structured in Egypt and who owns what.

Thanks. You are a moron.

 

[frogwoman]

If my assumptions are correct, I would make a distinction between the religious and corporate elites. Based on these assumptions I suspect they are not capitalists. They may invest some capital under islamic banking principles but I doubt these enterprises are all that profitable and therefore sufficient for them to be classed as a capitalist enterprise (as much as you could call those micro-loan charities 'capitalists'). I might be wrong, it would be interesting to see how the financial services is structured in Egypt and who owns what.

Yes they are. If they are running the capitalist state then they are capitalists. And I don't know much about Egypt's law system but in Islamic countries most capital is invested under "islamic principles" with no usury etc, that doesn't mean the workers labour surplus value isn't being exploited.

 

[elbows]

A clue for you Poo Flakes:

http://www.egyptindependent.com/opinion/brotherhoods-businessmen

 

[frogwoman]

The party’s platform calls for the withdrawal of the state from providing subsidized services to the people and expands the role of businessmen in managing state affairs. Safeguarding the rights of the poor is considered an act of social solidarity rather than a duty to be fulfilled by the state. This package of essentially American principles is then dubbed “Islamic” by the Brotherhood.

 

[elbows]

A NYTimes article that sheds a tiny bit more light on the USA's role, Morsi's stubbornness and al-Sisi's manoeuvres:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/w...as-tamed.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&smid=tw-share

His top foreign policy adviser, Essam el-Haddad, then left the room to call the United States ambassador, Anne W. Patterson, to say that Mr. Morsi refused. When he returned, he said he had spoken to Susan E. Rice, the national security adviser, and that the military takeover was about to begin, senior aides said.
“Mother just told us that we will stop playing in one hour,” an aide texted an associate, playing on a sarcastic Egyptian expression for the country’s Western patron, “Mother America.”

The abrupt end of Egypt’s first Islamist government was the culmination of months of escalating tensions and ultimately futile American efforts to broker a solution that would keep Mr. Morsi in his elected office, at least in name, if not in power. A new alliance of youthful activists and the Mubarak-era elite was driving street protests.

Mr. Morsi never believed the generals would turn on him as long as he respected their autonomy and privileges, his advisers said. He had been the Muslim Brotherhood’s designated envoy for talks with the ruling military council after the ouster of Mr. Mubarak. And his counterpart on the council was Gen. Abdul-Fattah el-Sisi.

The Brotherhood was naturally suspicious of the military, its historical opponent, but General Sisi cultivated Mr. Morsi and other leaders, one of them said, including going out of his way to show that he was a pious Muslim. “That is how the relationship between the two of them started,” said a senior Brotherhood official close to Mr. Morsi. “He trusted him.”

Mr. Morsi, they say, often pressed General Sisi to stop the threatening or disparaging statements toward the president from unnamed military officials in the news media. General Sisi merely said “newspapers and media exaggerate,” and that he was “trying to control the tensions toward the president inside the military,” one adviser said.

Yet Mr. Morsi insisted to his aides that he remained fully confident that General Sisi would not interfere, his advisers said. Mr. Morsi was the last one in the inner circle to acknowledge that General Sisi was ousting them.

The first alarms went off in Mr. Morsi’s inner circle on June 21, when General Sisi issued a public statement warning that the growing “split in society” between Mr. Morsi’s supporters and opponents compelled the military “to intervene.”

Mr. Morsi was given no warning, his advisers said. But when Mr. Morsi called the general, General Sisi told the president that “it was to satisfy some of his men” and that “it was nothing more than an attempt to absorb their anger,” one of Mr. Morsi’s advisers said. “So even after that first statement, the president didn’t think a coup was imminent.”

Mr. Morsi’s advisers had meetings with Ms. Patterson and her deputy as well as a phone call with Ms. Rice, the national security adviser. Mr. Morsi’s advisers argued that ousting the president would be “a long term disaster” for Egypt and the Arab world because people would “lose faith in democracy.” They said it would set off an explosion in the streets that they could not control.

And they argued that the United States was implicated: “Nobody who knows Egypt is going to believe a coup could go forward without a green light from the Americans.”
The advisers say the Americans encouraged them to see hope of a compromise; one adviser told a reporter that night that their fears had receded.

Suckers.

 

[sihhi]

those members not having a convenient relationship with Mubarak & Co like the MB leadership did on certain levels.

It's a very odd history the Brotherhood has under the Mubarak regime - to put it mildly.
eg

Although supposedly an opposing party, in 1987 they organised themselves to form the Islamic Alliance - a coalition of Muslim Brotherhood and the relatively tiny Party of Islamic Workers, and Party of 'Free' (ahrar meaning religion-respecting like the world ozgun in Turkish) Socialists. It received no registration problems, was able to conduct its work fairly unimpeded and so scored just under a fifth of the vote, the NDP clans, professional networks, guaranteeing its customary huge majority.

We might think great a force on the inside to highlight the abuses outside for all to see and move forward. Instead the Brotherhood went on the offensive against the NDP over a bill 'protecting' Christians officially called the Law for Protection of the Religions it said that those trying to convert people from one religion to another would be guilty of a serious crime whichever way. The Brotherhood's objection was that it would not be able to convert Copts to Islam (stopping Muslims from being converted fine natch), hence the law would privilege Christianity and Judaism, (Sunni Islam of course the guaranteed state budget religion) it declared that NDP was making itself the 'tool of the enemies of Islam'. It then went on the offensive again and every single one of its members supported a law for all Muslims who abandoned Islam to be guilty of a crime punishable by the death penalty.
The 'debate' raged for ages and I believe the Muslim apostasy law was defeated, but aspects of the Law for the Protection of the Religions were accepted.
This is the kind of struggle it put up against the Mubarak assault on Egypt, all the while deepening its - yes - capitalist network.

 

[sihhi]

A clue for you Poo Flakes:

http://www.egyptindependent.com/opinion/brotherhoods-businessmen

It's much wider than simply retail and furniture stores. Most of the construction industry and textile industry and power generation industry is in Brotherhood-allied or direct Brotherhood hands. It's extensive and solid - not going to be knocked away by this coup, just as it wasn't in Turkey after 1998.

Morsi went on a trade mission trip to China with his (not openly but de facto) Brotherhood-allied CBI organisation leaving out some traditional secular names - in these circumstances it's inevitable that there'll a group of capitalists eager to latch onto popular movements.

 

[Poo Flakes]

A clue for you Poo Flakes:

http://www.egyptindependent.com/opinion/brotherhoods-businessmen

Khairat al-Shater still sounds small fry.

Morsi went on a trade mission trip to China with his (not openly but de facto) Brotherhood-allied CBI organisation leaving out some traditional secular names - in these circumstances it's inevitable that there'll a group of capitalists eager to latch onto popular movements.

I would suspect this as well. Brotherhood does well and some latch onto it for power, whip out a psuedo-socialist banner when all that inevitably fucks up.

 

[Poo Flakes]

It's much wider than simply retail and furniture stores. Most of the construction industry and textile industry and power generation industry is in Brotherhood-allied or direct Brotherhood hands. It's extensive and solid - not going to be knocked away by this coup, just as it wasn't in Turkey after 1998.

Power generation? Seriously? Got any links?

 

[butchersapron]

Why don't you, moron, put your cards on the table?