Edinburgh - London: train vs plane (Scotsman challenge)

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Not useful and not an attack on you: see, this might be one of the sacrifices we have to make. We (me included) have got used to burning through a lot of time and money to cross countries and continents for short meetings, when really what we maybe ought to be doing is getting more comfortable with videoconferencing etc technology and blocking off a decent amount of time for it. Certainly at the last big company I worked at, despite having 30+ offices around the world, no-one would spend money on upgrading teleconferencing and training people how to use it - or even having people paid to sit around and work it for meeting attendees. And yet there was not the slightest hesitation to spend millions of quid flying people all over the world for meetings.

There's been shit loads of studies down on video conferencing. And whilst it does have its place and many larger companies do use it, for many issues it just doesn't come close to face to face meetings. maybe it's pheromones being given off or something, but far greater results seem to come from real meetings than from video ones.

That and most of those surveyed have a bird on the go in Munich or wherever too....

 

[teuchter]

There's been shit loads of studies down on video conferencing. And whilst it does have its place and many larger companies do use it, for many issues it just doesn't come close to face to face meetings. maybe it's pheromones being given off or something, but far greater results seem to come from real meetings than from video ones.

That and most of those surveyed have a bird on the go in Munich or wherever too....

Obviously it depends on the nature of the meeting... but from the perspective of what I do for work the main thing missing from a video conference is the ability to have stuff on the table that can be passed around and scribbled on and stuff. Maybe technology will bring that to us given time, though.

 

[geminisnake]

I think you've been confused by their marketing tactics - they call it "tax free prices" or something, and then claim that the price they are selling it at is less than the "average high street price" by the amount of tax that would have been payable.

Whereas the reality is that the price you pay includes the tax that they will pay (like any retailer) and the "average high street price" they are using is the result of a rather selective survey.

I may be confused by their tactics but my stuff was DEFINETLY 17.5% cheaper so I don't care. The perfume was approx 50% cheaper so again I don't care

 

[teuchter]

I may be confused by their tactics but my stuff was DEFINETLY 17.5% cheaper so I don't care. The perfume was approx 50% cheaper so again I don't care

Cheaper than what?

 

[Frankie Jack]

BMI flight.. canny whack it.......

 

[paolo]

I've just looked at the shopping pages for Gatwick.

As an example, they have a price of £23.00 for two 70cl bottles of standard spirits.

Sounds cheap?

So I then took a random pick. Smirnoff Red.

That's £10.78 at Sainsburys, compared with £11.50 at Gatwick. And at the supermarket, you can just buy the one bottle if you like.

So there's your 'saving'. Paying extra, forced to buy more than you might want, but with the warm feeling that because someone's told you it's cheaper, it really is.

 

[Badgers]

Possibly useful: how about a train up in the morning and then the sleeper back overnight? That way you could have all afternoon for the meetings, then have a nice meal/drink/film, jump on the train and then be back in London the next day.

Not useful and not an attack on you: see, this might be one of the sacrifices we have to make. We (me included) have got used to burning through a lot of time and money to cross countries and continents for short meetings, when really what we maybe ought to be doing is getting more comfortable with videoconferencing etc technology and blocking off a decent amount of time for it. Certainly at the last big company I worked at, despite having 30+ offices around the world, no-one would spend money on upgrading teleconferencing and training people how to use it - or even having people paid to sit around and work it for meeting attendees. And yet there was not the slightest hesitation to spend millions of quid flying people all over the world for meetings.

I choose not to fly in the UK or to mainland Europe. Have been made to in the past (bosses and stuff) but will not any more. I try to include business trips this long with a weekend break now. It can be hard to justify a spend of what is probably £500 versus an air fare of £100 for a single meeting though.

I wish people were more up to date with online conferencing I really do. Used to work for Sony when they were providing this for court trials etc nearly ten years ago so am no stranger to it.

The bottom line is that the trains should be cheaper. When I travel to the midlands the train is mostly 50% empty. We can do the sums easily?

 

[Badgers]

Just to add....

I fucking hate air travel from booking to return. The train is my favourite mode of transport. I can't wait for the German Eurostar and hope this begins more European linked travel.

 

[geminisnake]

Cheaper than what?

Than buying it elsewhere

 

[paolo]

'Elsewhere' doesn't have uniform prices, so it's not possible to have a uniform discount from 'Elsewhere'.

e2a: Unless it is part of a price matching offer. e.g. We promise to be 17.5% cheaper than the best price you can find. Which I don't believe any airport shop does, but I may be wrong.

 

[spanglechick]

i'd never consider flying to edinburgh, or any comparably distant city*, including paris.

we did go by train to barcelona - booking a private sleeper cabin with ensuite... but it was very expensive. i don't think i'd do it again.

*not in ireland, though. fuck ferries, tbh. sick-making, diesel-aired wrongness.

 

[JWH]

Even "real" duty free often isn't that cheap.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Even "real" duty free often isn't that cheap.

This year I did some research on Virgin's webshite and noted down the prices of their duty frees, then checked them against the shop at Gatwick when we got there and discovered it would be much cheaper on the plane.

So on the plane I bought 4 bottles of voddy, 400 fags and 1/2 kilo of baccy. Felt proper smug about it too.

Then when we landed we went to the supermarket to discover the voddy & fags were cheaper there than on the fucking plane

 

[teuchter]

It would be interesting to know how much the airports/airways make out of mugging passengers with this "duty free" stuff. Whether it's a significant enough amount to have an effect on ticket prices. They probably make more money out of some passengers this way than they do from the ticket.

 

[paolo]

It would be interesting to know how much the airports/airways make out of mugging passengers with this "duty free" stuff. Whether it's a significant enough amount to have an effect on ticket prices. They probably make more money out of some passengers this way than they do from the ticket.

Last time this came up in the media (that I remember, a documentary) it was stated that BAA make more money from retail and parking than they do from the business of passenger operations.

In stark contrast, the marketing director for Schiphol (voted business airport of the year at the time), said that their business was getting people on planes. If they wanted to shop, there's a shopping centre right outside the terminal. Their target time for getting people on planes? 45 minutes. At the time, BAA was varying between two or three hours as a check in minimum at it's major airports.

I remember when t4 was first built at Heathrow. It was wonderfully simple and functional. A line of check in desks, lots of seats, and some travel essentials shops in the corners. Then, when they realised the profit potential, the seats were removed and replaced with shops. The sightlines to the desks were gone, and there was nowhere to sit except in the connecting trunk corridors to the gates.

British airports, or at least the worst of them, have become crowded shopping centres squeezed into out of town industrial estates, with pretend-cheap shopping for a captive audience.

Most railway stations aren't much better, but you're not locked in a crap shopping shed for an hour or possibly several.

The Schiphol model gets my vote. Be an airport, not a shopping centre.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The man from Schiphol was talking shite then. Schiphol pioneered the concept of airport shopping. Long before T4 even opened Schiphol had a massive array of all kinds of shops airside, from the normal book shops to the Dutch equivalent to Dixons, fur coast shops, diamond merchants etc. Everyone must have seen this on bags:

 

[Cobbles]

i'd never consider flying to edinburgh, or any comparably distant city*, including paris.

we did go by train to barcelona - booking a private sleeper cabin with ensuite... but it was very expensive. i don't think i'd do it again.

*not in ireland, though. fuck ferries, tbh. sick-making, diesel-aired wrongness.

That's fine for Lunnuners, however if a trip to Amsterdam (which is probably closer to Edinburgh than London anyway) turns into an 8 or 9 hour trek by rail, then an hour and a half's flight seems like a decent option.

the same goes for Paris and anywhere else on the Continent - only a total lunatic would want to add on at least 4 and a half hours just to get to London to then have to trek hundreds of yards with your luggage to wait for the onward connection.

We don't even have any vile diesel stinky ferries now that the Rosyth-Bruges route is closing down.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

We don't even have any vile diesel stinky ferries now that the Rosyth-Bruges route is closing down.

There's never been a ferry from Scotland to Bruges.

 

[JWH]

Last time this came up in the media (that I remember, a documentary) it was stated that BAA make more money from retail and parking than they do from the business of passenger operations...Their target time for getting people on planes? 45 minutes. At the time, BAA was varying between two or three hours as a check in minimum at it's major airports.

http://www.schiphol.nl/Travellers/AtSchiphol/CheckinControl/Checkin.htm 2 hours for European destinations, 3 hours for non-European destinations.

If they don't make money from shopping, they'll take it from passenger fees. It's like the old x-channel ferries: if you don't want to buy anything, don't, and you still get the "subsidy" from the lemmings doing all the shopping.

 

[Cobbles]

There's never been a ferry from Scotland to Bruges.

Rosyth - Zeebrugge - as in "Sea-Bruge" e.g. the port of Bruges.

'kin anal........

 

[T & P]

I don't mind the odd shop at airports... but of all the airports I've been to (not that many, but in various European countries as well as the US and Canada), BAA's are by far the most depressing, clogged and shop-crammed I've seen. Every last square inch available will be used commercially. As a result, quiet areas (not to mention outside views and natural light) are hard to come by at most BAA terminals.

Fucking hellholes full of McDonalds, arcade machine lounges, Currys, Boots and orange-skinned women selling tickets to win a Ferrari, in fact.

 

[paolo]

http://www.schiphol.nl/Travellers/AtSchiphol/CheckinControl/Checkin.htm 2 hours for European destinations, 3 hours for non-European destinations.

If they don't make money from shopping, they'll take it from passenger fees. It's like the old x-channel ferries: if you don't want to buy anything, don't, and you still get the "subsidy" from the lemmings doing all the shopping.

The documentary was, admittedly, at least ten years ago. Although they did, at the time, state 45 minutes as a target time, it sounds like it's just as bad as the rest these days.

None of this, though, strengthens the idea that air travel is convenient. Quite the opposite.

I'll acknowledge Cobbles point from an Edinburgh (or similar) centric point of view. Rail to Europe from such an extremity is very time consuming.

Nonetheless I think there has been a little nonsense talked on the thread. That "most if not all" toilets are closed on trains, that airport shopping prices are always cheaper. There's a parallel universe going on that most of us have yet to experience.

 

[JWH]

I'll acknowledge Cobbles point from an Edinburgh (or similar) centric point of view. Rail to Europe from such an extremity is very time consuming.

Which is great, but he should change the fucking record. There's seven million people in London and eight million people in SE England but only 5 million people in the whole Scotland. What's more, it's SE England that has the greatest density of people who want and need to travel to Europe frequently and has the most congested airports, so it's obviously where rail can have the greatest impact.

All of his tedious foot-stamping and parroting "it's no good for Scotland...it's no good for Scotland...it's no good for Scotland" is all beside the point when that's not the primary market that's trying to be served. And, for that matter, there is still a significant number of people who'll choose extra journey time in order to not fly if it's cheaper - see, for example, all the poor saps still going London-Glasgow/Edinburgh/Aberdeen on National Express, MegaBus, that dodgy London Flyer one...

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Rosyth - Zeebrugge - as in "Sea-Bruge" e.g. the port of Bruges.

'kin anal........

30 miles away dick head.

Plus the ferry is still running, they just don't want you on board.

 

[lighterthief]

http://www.schiphol.nl/Travellers/AtSchiphol/CheckinControl/Checkin.htm 2 hours for European destinations, 3 hours for non-European destinations.

If they don't make money from shopping, they'll take it from passenger fees. It's like the old x-channel ferries: if you don't want to buy anything, don't, and you still get the "subsidy" from the lemmings doing all the shopping.

That's what Schipol Airport tell you. For flights within Europe check-in generally closes 30 > 60 minutes prior to departure.

 

[T & P]

Which is great, but he should change the fucking record. There's seven million people in London and eight million people in SE England but only 5 million people in the whole Scotland. What's more, it's SE England that has the greatest density of people who want and need to travel to Europe frequently and has the most congested airports, so it's obviously where rail can have the greatest impact.

All of his tedious foot-stamping and parroting "it's no good for Scotland...it's no good for Scotland...it's no good for Scotland" is all beside the point when that's not the primary market that's trying to be served. And, for that matter, there is still a significant number of people who'll choose extra journey time in order to not fly if it's cheaper - see, for example, all the poor saps still going London-Glasgow/Edinburgh/Aberdeen on National Express, MegaBus, that dodgy London Flyer one...

The 'but it's not good for me in Scotland' excuse is only a smokescreen anyway. I remember Cobbles in the past trying to defend the London to Paris air route as being better or faster (LOL x 94,000) than the equivalent Eurostar journey.

His irrational hatred of trains and love of air transport does seem to cloud his judgement a little bit...

 

[mattie]

As far as I understood it, airlines have nothing to do with duty-free shops, so they couldn't really care less what you spend and it has no bearing on your ticket price (unlike ferries, as mentioned above, where the operators of the ferry service recieve revenue from duty-free)

The only impact I thought 'external' commercial factors had was on minimum passenger numbers. My colleague's wife is from Northern Ireland and they got paid to take a Ryanair flight to Belfast so that Ryanair could fulfil obligations to the airport itself - the airport of course only making money if there's enough footfall of passengers. Obviously Ryanair lost on the flights, but needed to keep the airport sweet and the route open for more profitable times.

 

[Cobbles]

30 miles away dick head.

Plus the ferry is still running, they just don't want you on board.

Oh shit they must have moved it since I was last there...

http://www.bing.com/maps/?mm_src=home&FORM=MMREDIR#JmNwPTUxLjI2NTUzMzk3NjI1Njg2fjMuMjA0NzA1MDA3Mzc0Mjg2NyZsdmw9MTEmcnRwPXBvcy41MS4zMzA5NzU1MTc2MzA1OF8zLjIwNjk3NTgzMjU4MTUyX1plZWJydWdnZSUyQyUyMEJlbGdpdW1fX19lX35wb3MuNTEuMjA4NDg2NDA3OTk1MjI0XzMuMjI0NTI3NTM3ODIyNzIzNF9CcnVnZXMlMkMlMjBCZWxnaXVtX19fZV8mbW9kZT1EJnJ0b3A9MH4wfjB+

Oh no - apparently it's still only 11 miles away shit-for-brains (is it 30 if you're a saddo no-mark who has to rely on public transport or did you just fail O Grade Geography and Google level 1).

The ferry service shuts down on 15th. December.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

So no ferry runs to Bruges.

Thanks for clairfying.

And just because you are sort of cunt that no one likes, you'll be pleased to learn that the ferry will continue running to Zeebrugge, it just won't welcome tedious twats like you.

 

[Cobbles]

So no ferry runs to Bruges.

If you've got a car, it's the ferry to Bruges.

If you want to be really anally trainspotterish about it, you can't get a ferry to Calais either as it drops you at the Port de Calais as opposed to the city Centre - that's the problem with ships - no flexibility...................

you'll be pleased to learn that the ferry will continue running to Zeebrugge,

Only until 15th. December.