Edinburgh - London: train vs plane (Scotsman challenge)

[teuchter]

I haven't used the train since

So it is effectively a sample size of one?

It's just that your experience seems at odds with most people's. East Coast (in the form of various franchises over the years) have been one of the best operators for some time, quite consistently. I travel by train quite a bit and it's very unusual that all toilets would be out of order on a long distance train. Did you ask the train staff? As you hint, using the ones in first class would be perfectly reasonable if there were no others available (although the story seems to have changed now - there was one available after all).

I think there is a kind of road rage equivalent that afflicts some people when they go on the train. I know that lots of things could be better about our railways but sometimes people's outrage seems out of proportion to the actual nature of the problem. If you got delayed by an hour on a seven hour car journey would you swear never to drive again and demand your petrol money back? I think the compensation scheme for rail delays in the UK is quite generous really. Like others have said, you wouldn't have much hope of getting money back from an airline, or long distance bus operator.

 

[mattie]

So it is effectively a sample size of one?

It's just that your experience seems at odds with most people's. East Coast (in the form of various franchises over the years) have been one of the best operators for some time, quite consistently. I travel by train quite a bit and it's very unusual that all toilets would be out of order on a long distance train. Did you ask the train staff? As you hint, using the ones in first class would be perfectly reasonable if there were no others available (although the story seems to have changed now - there was one available after all).

I think there is a kind of road rage equivalent that afflicts some people when they go on the train. I know that lots of things could be better about our railways but sometimes people's outrage seems out of proportion to the actual nature of the problem. If you got delayed by an hour on a seven hour car journey would you swear never to drive again and demand your petrol money back? I think the compensation scheme for rail delays in the UK is quite generous really. Like others have said, you wouldn't have much hope of getting money back from an airline, or long distance bus operator.

I think the reason people get frustrated with train delays is because it's seen as the train 'system' tripping over itself.

The trains run on set lines, at set times, in known volumes, so it shouldn't be outside the wit of man to get it right.

 

[teuchter]

I think the reason people get frustrated with train delays is because it's seen as the train 'system' tripping over itself.

The trains run on set lines, at set times, in known volumes, so it shouldn't be outside the wit of man to get it right.

Whereas the reality is that it's a very complex system and one small thing going wrong can have a big knock-on effect on lots of other things.

 

[mattie]

Whereas the reality is that it's a very complex system and one small thing going wrong can have a big knock-on effect on lots of other things.

Well, the real problem in the UK is that it's a series of systems sharing certain infrastructure and resource but not imperatives.

Not a great recipe, that.

 

[The Boy]

why on earth would I want to spend 2 nights on something less comfy than a 1940's campbed with the prospect of a public shower stall at Kings Cross as opposed to sleeping in my own bed and using my own ensuite).

And then what, exactly?

 

[editor]

No, you get poxy vouchers for train travel. A percentage of the cost of the journey unless the train is VERY late.

It only has to be 30 minutes late to get half your money back, and if it's over an hour you get it all back.

# Customers delayed on East Coast services between 30 and 59 minutes will receive compensation of at least 50% of the cost of a single ticket or at least 50% of the cost of either portion of a return ticket (by 'portion' we mean either the outward or the return part of a return ticket).

# Customers delayed on East Coast services between 60 and 119 minutes will receive compensation of at least 100% of the cost of a single ticket or at least 100% of the cost of either portion of a return ticket (by 'portion' we mean either the outward or the return part of a return ticket).

# Customers delayed on East Coast services for 120 minutes or longer will receive compensation of at least 100% of the cost of a single ticket or at least 100% of the cost of a return ticket (i.e. both ways, not just one way).

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/About-us/Passengers-Charter1/Delay-Repay/

What do you get for a delayed plane?

 

[Crispy]

Those are the T&C's for the current operator, which is the government, it may well have been different at the time.

 

[teuchter]

They've been along those lines since GNER days, I think.

 

[editor]

They've been along those lines since GNER days, I think.

I've been getting similar deals off Great Western for years too. About ten years ago we got our entire return fare to Cornwall refunded when the train was over an hour late.

 

[ethel]

edit: ed got there first

oh and my flight to barcelona was delayed by about 5 hours earlier this year. BA gave me £10 in food vouchers and refused to refund the taxi i had to get at the other end as the buses had stopped.

by comparison when i was delayed by 2 hours on east coast, i got my money back and a black cab home.

 

[pogofish]

So it is effectively a sample size of one?

Nope - I can tell you of many similar journeys over the years - And I used to travel to and from London or Birmingham regularly and I can still only count the number of "good" journeys on one hand.

 

[paolo]

Nope - I can tell you of many similar journeys over the years - And I used to travel to and from London or Birmingham regularly and I can still only count the number of "good" journeys on one hand.

Do you mean "most if not all the toilets were closed", or something else?

 

[teuchter]

Maybe Aberdonians just have an uncanny ability to block up toilets. This never seems to be an issue on the Inverness train.

 

[T & P]

Let me see - an advertising stunt laid on by the major franchisee - that's rather like the Nuremburg war trials being managed by the SS Old boys association.

"They’ll both start from outside Edinburgh’s Scotsman Hotel" - about the only place with direct access down to Market Street and Waverley Station - so, not rigged.

Why not start in Leith or the Gyle?

Funnily enough Cobbles, I do not remember you ever complaining about similar rigged tactics when used by the boys of Top Gear to try 'prove' that cars are better or faster than trains or even aeroplanes for a given journey.

 

[fredfelt]

I think the reason people get frustrated with train delays is because it's seen as the train 'system' tripping over itself.

The trains run on set lines, at set times, in known volumes, so it shouldn't be outside the wit of man to get it right.

Reminds me of some recent announcements from the 'train manager' on a delayed train...

"We would like to apologise for the late running of this train, this is due to Beeching who as some of you may know decided to axe one of the tracks on this line back in 1969"

this was followed up some time later with

"We would like to apologise for the late running of this train, this is of course due to sheer incompetence"

Anyway I love taking the train as it's not often I get chance to sit back and relax for a few hours to read a book / watch the world go by / even stare blankly at the fast moving landscape. Of course you can do this on a plane but it's just not as comfortable. If you are too busy to be able to relish in your own company in this way then fair enough - however I'm glad my time is not as valuable as yours and as a result forces me to use the plane!

 

[geminisnake]

What do you get for a delayed plane?

Duty free Whether the plane is delayed or not.

I only used to the train coz it was your b'day bash so I thought I'd try it again. Sorry but never again.
I don't think it's Aberdonians that abuse the toilets, it quite often seems to be offshore workers and hen/stag parties that cause the problems.

The trains via Glasgow seem to be ok(used 2/3 in about 4 yrs)

 

[geminisnake]

If you are too busy to be able to relish in your own company in this way then fair enough - however I'm glad my time is not as valuable as yours and as a result forces me to use the plane!

I'm not too busy to relish my own company. I live rurally, I have plenty of my own company thanks I despise travelling and therefore want to get the job done in as short a time as possible. They promised we'd be able to teleport by now when I was wee. They LIED!! I'm still waiting!!

 

[teuchter]

You can get duty free when you fly within the UK?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

You can get duty free when you fly within the UK?

London to Edinburgh via Oslo you can. Worth every fookin' penny.

 

[geminisnake]

You can get duty free when you fly within the UK?

Yep. I used to wait til I was flying to buy my games consoles and games. Cheap perfumes/toiletries too. Bought whisky for friends before coz it was cheaper. Flying between Edinburgh/London or Bristol.
Think folk outwith the EU got things even cheaper but not sure.

 

[teuchter]

Yep. I used to wait til I was flying to buy my games consoles and games. Cheap perfumes/toiletries too. Bought whisky for friends before coz it was cheaper. Flying between Edinburgh/London or Bristol.
Think folk outwith the EU got things even cheaper but not sure.

I think you've been confused by their marketing tactics - they call it "tax free prices" or something, and then claim that the price they are selling it at is less than the "average high street price" by the amount of tax that would have been payable.

Whereas the reality is that the price you pay includes the tax that they will pay (like any retailer) and the "average high street price" they are using is the result of a rather selective survey.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware the whole thing's just a bit of a con to take advantage of people's expectation (from buying genuine duty free goods) that stuff bought in an airport is somehow magically going to be cheaper than what you could get it for elsewhere.

 

[flash]

Did this once by train (as I have slight issues with flying - especially over short distances). I wouldn't do it again - let's put it that way.

Hope that helps?

-----------

sorry should have read the OP before posting - so not relevant.

 

[joustmaster]

i have flown to scotland twice, and been on the train a number of times. Over all the plane wins for me. But the train edges it back a bit on cost.

The megabus once took 12 hours to get from london to leeds. cost a quid though.

also, the internet is far cheaper than duty free shops.

 

[quimcunx]

I used to fly LCA to Dundee and it was generally a pleasure. 6 hours + on a train can get a bit boring and uncomfortable. There is less time to get bored flying, especially as you don't have to turn up too early for LCA or Dundee airport. Plus Dundee airport is tiny and therefore amusing. For some reason I was less scared on their little propeller planes than on big ones. But I think the prices went up a bit too much when they were sold so I went back to the train. I usually buy a return with flexible return leg and break my journey up on the way back. You can't do that on a plane, not without unwelcome consequences. Kings Cross is also easier (for me) to get to than LCA.

 

[JWH]

The megabus once took 12 hours to get from london to leeds. cost a quid though.

Overnight buses from Edinburgh to London. Stopping by the side of the road because someone claimed they'd been robbed while asleep.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I think you've been confused by their marketing tactics - they call it "tax free prices" or something, and then claim that the price they are selling it at is less than the "average high street price" by the amount of tax that would have been payable.

Whereas the reality is that the price you pay includes the tax that they will pay (like any retailer) and the "average high street price" they are using is the result of a rather selective survey.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware the whole thing's just a bit of a con to take advantage of people's expectation (from buying genuine duty free goods) that stuff bought in an airport is somehow magically going to be cheaper than what you could get it for elsewhere.

Like Onkey, you are correct. There's no tax advantage to be gained with a domestic flight. Flights within the EU you don't pay VAT. Flights to destinations outside the EU* you don't pay duty on fags, booze & perfume.

*Includes flights to Geneva & Basel, both of which have exits in to EU countries as well as Switzerland.

 

[Badgers]

I have a possible meeting in Glasgow next month. Likely to take two hours in total and I really hate flying, especially inside the UK.

Train will take about 11 hours round trip and cost £287 return. That is a long, expensive day for two hours. I should buy the fellow a web cam Skype phone then send it by courier, would be an easier day

 

[teuchter]

I have a possible meeting in Glasgow next month. Likely to take two hours in total and I really hate flying, especially inside the UK.

Train will take about 11 hours round trip and cost £287 return. That is a long, expensive day for two hours. I should buy the fellow a web cam Skype phone then send it by courier, would be an easier day

Or, arrange the meeting for after 2pm and then you don't have to buy an anytime ticket and the fare will be £108 at the most, or possibly less if you can find some advance tickets.

Euston 0930 - Glasgow 1401
Glasgow 1640 - Euston 2124

Total journey time 9 hrs 13

 

[JWH]

I have a possible meeting in Glasgow next month. Likely to take two hours in total and I really hate flying, especially inside the UK. Train will take about 11 hours round trip and cost £287 return. That is a long, expensive day for two hours. I should buy the fellow a web cam Skype phone then send it by courier, would be an easier day

Possibly useful: how about a train up in the morning and then the sleeper back overnight? That way you could have all afternoon for the meetings, then have a nice meal/drink/film, jump on the train and then be back in London the next day.

Not useful and not an attack on you: see, this might be one of the sacrifices we have to make. We (me included) have got used to burning through a lot of time and money to cross countries and continents for short meetings, when really what we maybe ought to be doing is getting more comfortable with videoconferencing etc technology and blocking off a decent amount of time for it. Certainly at the last big company I worked at, despite having 30+ offices around the world, no-one would spend money on upgrading teleconferencing and training people how to use it - or even having people paid to sit around and work it for meeting attendees. And yet there was not the slightest hesitation to spend millions of quid flying people all over the world for meetings.

 

[Dr. Furface]

Train for me - easier and cheaper to get to Kings X and then at the other end no messing about getting from airport to city centre. All things considered the time won't be much different either when you include check in and commute times. Cheaper too.