Dune - dir. Denis Villeneuve

[Sue]

Do we know who that is by now?
Is that the funny little old Attreides consigliere with the dainty parasol who’s already on Arrakis?

I don't. (One of the things I found confusing about the films is the bandying around of names that have never -- or very barely -- been mentioned.) Did the consigliere bloke not get killed in the first film?

 

[DotCommunist]

Barons and Baronesses are usually bad guys in stories. Are there any good ones?

depending on which side you were on. the Red Baron was a goodie

 

[Sue]

not that I recall. No thats Thurfir Hawat. The 1984 version of the character had dennis healey eyebrows. They're human computers, deep cognitive training. The film also obscures that Paul is trained in the Mentat tradition as well all the prana-bindu combat witchcaft and Voice stuff

Not sure it obscures, none of that is mentioned. (And of course the films'll be different from the book, just depends on whether that's stuff you need to know to make sense of things.)

 

[Elpenor]

A wider question perhaps is what classes as a successful film adaptation if you still need to have read the book to fully know what’s going on and all of the connections between characters

 

[Gromit]

Barons and Baronesses are usually bad guys in stories. Are there any good ones?

Baron Von Munchausen?

 

[Orang Utan]

not that I recall. No thats Thurfir Hawat. The 1984 version of the character had dennis healey eyebrows. They're human computers, deep cognitive training. The film also obscures that Paul is trained in the Mentat tradition as well all the prana-bindu combat witchcaft and Voice stuff

Oh I think that’s Freddie Jones’ character, who I had thought was the character played by Chang Chen, the doctor who accompanies the Bene Gesseret, but that must be another character! Confusing!

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't. (One of the things I found confusing about the films is the bandying around of names that have never -- or very barely -- been mentioned.) Did the consigliere bloke not get killed in the first film?

i was only referring to Part One

 

[DotCommunist]

Not sure it obscures, none of that is mentioned. (And of course the films'll be different from the book, just depends on whether that's stuff you need to know to make sense of things.)

The 1984 version handled explaining the world fairly badly by shoehorning it in as characters internal thoughts in voice over, not great. I've not seen p2 yet.

 

[Sue]

A wider question perhaps is what classes as a successful film adaptation if you still need to have read the book to fully know what’s going on and all of the connections between characters

Completely agree. It's like the Christopher Nolan school of 'you have to watch the film a number of times to understand it'. To me, that says the film's not a very good film.

 

[Chz]

Baron Von Munchausen?

He's... not a baddie, but not exactly a hero either.

 

[Santino]

Completely agree. It's like the Christopher Nolan school of 'you have to watch the film a number of times to understand it'. To me, that says the film's not a very good film.

I think it's ok if you only get the general gist of the story first time. I think I had to watch films like The Godfather and Get Carter two or three times at least to work out exactly what went on. When the story is quite complex, the only way to make it completely transparent first time is to have loads of hand-holding and expositionary dialogue, which makes it less re-watchable in the long run.

 

[Orang Utan]

Barons and Baronesses are usually bad guys in stories. Are there any good ones?

Baron Bigod Truffle

 

[Gromit]

Completely agree. It's like the Christopher Nolan school of 'you have to watch the film a number of times to understand it'. To me, that says the film's not a very good film.

Does that apply to Airplane? (And Airplane II)
You have to watch it numerous times to get everything out of it.

 

[Sue]

I think it's ok if you only get the general gist of the story first time. I think I had to watch films like The Godfather and Get Carter two or three times at least to work out exactly what went on. When the story is quite complex, the only way to make it completely transparent first time is to have loads of hand-holding and expositionary dialogue, which makes it less re-watchable in the long run.

Oh, of course there are loads of excellent films where you notice additional things on rewatches, pick up more detail etc. But the Nolan films where he pretty much says you need to watch them a number of times to get the bare gist and sees that as some kind of badge of honour. That's just lazy film making or 'look at how smart I am!' film making. Which I find extremely tedious.

 

[Orang Utan]

Oh, of course there are loads of excellent films where you notice additional things on rewatches, pick up more detail etc. But the Nolan films where he pretty much says you need to watch them a number of times to get the bare gist and sees that as some kind of badge of honour. That's just lazy film making or 'look at how smart I am!' film making. Which I find extremely tedious.

It find it frustrating too, esp with adaptations. Maybe they should come up with original ideas worthy of stand alone films instead of trying to cram a book’s worth of interior monologues and complex back stories into one film (or more if you’re lucky with box office). These books have family trees, maps, character lists and glossaries ffs!

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Barons and Baronesses are usually bad guys in stories. Are there any good ones?

The Scarlet Pimpernel is a baronet

 

[Sue]

The Scarlet Pimpernel is a baronet

Saving aristos from the will of the people. Clearly a baddie.

 

[Ted Striker]

Watching this at a proper I-Max on Tuesday so thought I’d catch up on part 1 this weekend on Netflix.
Have tried 4 times to get past the first half hour and fallen asleep each time.
The plot is rather vague, the characters aren’t introduced clearly so you don’t know even their names let alone their functions.
I enjoyed it at the cinema, but more as an experience than a coherent entertainment.
Think it’s one of those adaptations which requires book wankerdom to get the full benefit, but am gonna try again this evening with headphones and subs to see if it’s just an attention thing.

This is my feeling too - it made me feel quite dim or that I had missed a scene where everyone and ploy point is introduced properly. I have watched 1 twice (once when it first came out, and then again on Thursday night immediately before the 00:01 showing of pt2).

I probably shouldn't admit this, but I appreciate it (the Dune series) much more for reading the plot section of the Wikipedia plot section afterwards - not that I got much wrong as such, but just removed the minute anxiety of not being fully confident I understood everything

As a means of extending my current submersion into the Dune world, I watched (well, managed the first 20 mins of) the Dune TV series, and that is much more telegraphed in it's storytelling (if understandably 'of its time' in production standards relative to the DV version)...

As an aside, I definitely think there is a market for giving hints at subtle meanings, unsaids, and motivations for those of us who struggle with such things - some cross between subtitles, and a mate in the room that knows all about it but isn't put off by you petstering him by asking stuff like

Spoiler: minor D2 plot point

but how come he drinks the poison once and it makes him ill, but the poison is then 5 mins later it's now the elixir that saves him?

 

[Sue]

This is my feeling too - it made me feel quite dim or that I had missed a scene where everyone and ploy point is introduced properly. I have watched 1 twice (once when it first came out, and then again on Thursday night immediately before the 00:01 showing of pt2).

I probably shouldn't admit this, but I appreciate it (the Dune series) much more for reading the plot section of the Wikipedia plot section afterwards - not that I got much wrong as such, but just removed the minute anxiety of not being fully confident I understood everything

As a means of extending my current submersion into the Dune world, I watched (well, managed the first 20 mins of) the Dune TV series, and that is much more telegraphed in it's storytelling (if understandably 'of its time' in production standards relative to the DV version)...

As an aside, I definitely think there is a market for giving hints at subtle meanings, unsaids, and motivations for those of us who struggle with such things - some cross between subtitles, and a mate in the room that knows all about it but isn't put off by you petstering him by asking stuff like

Spoiler: minor D2 plot point

but how come he drinks the poison once and it makes him ill, but the poison is then 5 mins later it's now the elixir that saves him?

Or:

Spoiler

If controlling spice ultimately gives you control of everything, why not just take control of the spice fields and then wait for everyone else to come crawling rather than heading off (to war/another planet?) at the end?

 

[Orang Utan]

does the image of the wall trophy of what looks like a bison signify anything more than just imperialism? Everything seems invested with great significance, seemingly at the expense of a coherent plot

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

does the image of the wall trophy of what looks like a bison signify anything more than just imperialism? Everything seems invested with great significance, seemingly at the expense of a coherent plot

I think it's mean to be a nod to their Greek ancestors. Links to Theseus.

 

[Gramsci]

Spoiler: plot

Spoiler: The visions earlier on in the film showed the future timeline where Paul becomes a God Emperor. Why he resists this as he knows a Galactic Jihad will kill millions. He also knows that in that timeline he wins. Dune Messiah goes into the downside of this. The point of the first book is that he is the superhuman that the Bene Gesserit have been constructing over hundreds of years.

[/SPOILER

 

[Gramsci]

Or:

Spoiler

If controlling spice ultimately gives you control of everything, why not just take control of the spice fields and then wait for everyone else to come crawling rather than heading off (to war/another planet?) at the end?

"][/SPOILER]

 

[Gramsci]

Or:

Spoiler

If controlling spice ultimately gives you control of everything, why not just take control of the spice fields and then wait for everyone else to come crawling rather than heading off (to war/another planet?) at the end?

There Is an answer that explains this. However I cant get spoiler to work to do it.

How does spoiler work?

 

[Orang Utan]

There Is an answer that explains this. However I cant get spoiler to work to do it.

How does spoiler work?

Highlight the text then click on inline spoiler from the effects menu (the phantom of the opera emoji)
Or just type the text and bracket it with this:

 

[urbanspaceman]

Spacing Guild heighliners conveniently fold spacetime, so that the start point and the end point of a journey are adjacent to each other, thus saving everybody a tedious amount of travelling time; it would have been handy to have a heighliner for this film. And with a joke as nerdy as that, it's probably obvious that Dune has been banging around my brainpan for the past half-century.

The film was way too long, monotonous (too many shots of people sitting around in the desert), repetitive (stab-stabby-stab), dishonest (not a single drop of blood despite the medieval levels of butchery; apparently you can challenge the Imperial House Corino, but must kiss the ring of the censors at the MPAA).

There's a lot of cod-spiritual woo-woo, but basically it's white saviour Lawrence of Arabia/Dances with Wolves/Avatar all over again, with bit of Apocalypse Now thrown in. Skinny emo kid, bickers with his mum all the time, avenges father, kills impressively experienced and skilled opponents, is venerated as messiah. And what's more he gets TWO chicks at the end ! TWO I tell you ! One is a passionate dusky desert warrior, the other a posh, aristocratic well-connected princess. Suck on that Jake Sully ! You had to settle for just one Smurf, plus put up with a bunch of whiny blue teenagers.

Also, who cares ? One set of bloodthirsty feudal aristocrats at the top is replaced by another. The vast billions of subjects of the Empire are just expendable and worthless NPCs and their lives don't change a whit. Same as Star Wars. Or indeed Game of Thrones. I don't care who wins - it's not as if the goodies are going to give everyone the vote.

I'm beginning to realise that the only SF universe that is any way compelling is Star Trek. Firstly, it's sort of plausible as we are directly connected to the Star Trek universe; it's explicitly an extension of our world. Compare with the Dune universe, which 25,000 years into the future has inferior technology to our times: no spy satellites, long range artillery, armoured vehicles, MLRS, drones, "rods-from-God", fast jets or B52s. Battles fought by two lines of soldiers running at each other. Dune must be happening in a multiverse disconnected from ours.

And the Federation promulgates progressive ideals; when it falls short then it's not a trivial matter (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Pale_Moonlight )

I'm looking forward to the Star Trek "Section 31" (streaming) film, which will explore the covert dirty tricks department of the Federation (whose Charter only has 30 sections) that gets up to all sorts of shenanigans so that ordinary citizens can sleep innocentl in their beds, and will no doubt interrogate the comfortable lies the Federation tells itself.

 

[Thora]

Went to see part 2 with my 13 year old tonight and we both loved it. He proclaims it the best sci fi movie he's ever seen
Neither of us have read the books so I don't think made any difference.
My only criticism really is that the Hans Zimmer score was a bit much at times.

I also accidentally booked a subtitled screening but I like subtitles on the TV at home and my son also felt it helped!

 

[Orang Utan]

Went to see part 2 with my 13 year old tonight and we both loved it. He proclaims it the best sci fi movie he's ever seen
Neither of us have read the books so I don't think made any difference.
My only criticism really is that the Hans Zimmer score was a bit much at times.

I also accidentally booked a subtitled screening but I like subtitles on the TV at home and my son also felt it helped!

Shit, forgot to check that
Wish all screenings were subtitled, or at least most

 

[Gromit]

Spoiler: minor D2 plot point

but how come he drinks the poison once and it makes him ill, but the poison is then 5 mins later it's now the elixir that saves him?

Spoiler

Magical prophesy tears changed it. Done to give Chani more of a reason for being than in the books.

 

[Wilf]

as Herbert put it in the 80s


we've booked tickets for the Science Museum Imax but not until the end of the month. hope I can avoid spoilers for this 60 year old novel I've read a dozen times until then!

Yes, I'm the same. Seeing it tomorrow, but have read the books and heard the 1st 3 on audiobook + seen the mini series and the Sting's undercrackers film. I've even read some of the piss weak books by Herbert's son.