Dulwich Hamlet fans discuss how to bring the joy back to Champion Hill

[B.I.G]

Do you think the views on here represent the majority of people who attended the game yesterday?

No but that is the problem. But also you can’t have an echo chamber where no one agrees.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of the crowd is an echo chamber though.

 

[B.I.G]

Yes, it saddens me that this is our new reality. I love the fact that we get big crowds, but the lack of atmosphere and chanting at games, added to the seemingly growing disconnect between players/management and the supporters is making going to home games much less appealing. This disconnect will drive ardent fans away in the medium term and as the relationship deteriorates - as it clearly is at the moment - I think this will eventually start to affect our attendances too. We have to remember that the main reason the club has grown is because of its passionate fans and community ethos; it can easily go into decline again if that is lost. I really think Gavin and the team need to up their game in terms of how they relate to supporters. They need to remember that we're paying their wages and they're not Premier League primadonnas! I'm not sure if the players come and chat with the fans in the bar after games? They really need to be doing that kind of stuff every week to build rapport with the fans. They also ought to be acknowledging the fans in the ground at the end of games. Even Premier league players do that!!

The new ground, which will have stepped terracing on 3 sides, ought to make the sight lines much better, but for the time being I think we should set the our ground capacity at somewhere between 2,500-3,000. This would still allow for big crowds, but would allow us a bit of room to move.

If that's all it's raising, perhaps we should ditch it and focus our energies elsewhere. With the attendances and bar takings we get, £300 is a drop in the ocean.


As far as I understand, anyone who wanted to could buy shares in the club when the share issue was made a few years ago. I doubt they're making any money on their investment. I think it's really harsh to criticise the chairman for bringing his friends to football matches; I think it's great that he loves the club enough to invite and include others in what he's doing and join the fans behind the goal. How many club chaimen do that? It's very easy to criticise others just because they are different to us - from a different social class or with different beliefs - and such criticism is nearly always destructive. I honestly think Ben is trying to build a united community club and he can't do everything on his own.
The issue with 'supporters' not being engaged with the game and the resulting effect on the atmoshere is huge, and it will leave old skool passionate fans incredibly frustrated. We don't seem to have many leaders in the crowd or a core grouop of supporters to start chants these days. Why is that and what can we do about it?

The reason is because these sort of people just want to be around people just like them. To be ironic observers rather than participants.

Anyway I warned everybody and consistently no one agreed. People still don’t agree. So I wish them all well with their “community club”.

 

[AveryDave]

No but that is the problem. But also you can’t have an echo chamber where no one agrees.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of the crowd is an echo chamber though.

A small number of echo chambers, then.

Agreed on the majority.

 

[scousedom]

Also the 50:50 draw - £300 is all that it raised from that crowd? I can only assume many don't see the benefit of supporting the club other than via the bar.

I think cash is the issue here. Am only speaking personally but since the pandemic I have completely stopped using cash. And even card. It would have been unthinkable to me two years ago but I just leave the house these days with my phone and pay for everything on that. As such I don’t put money into 50:50 anymore.
I always used to guess the crowd by multiplying the announced 50:50 jackpot by 5 - it was usually pretty close. If yesterday the factor was by 10, maybe it shows lots of other people are cashless now too…? Not sure there is much that can be done there.

 

[pinknblue]

The reason is because these sort of people just want to be around people just like them. To be ironic observers rather than participants.

Anyway I warned everybody and consistently no one agreed. People still don’t agree. So I wish them all well with their “community club”.

We all find it easier to be around people who are like us! I'm sure you feel that way too. I really don't like this kind of reverse snobbery. Why don't you get involved and change things rather than criticising people who are doing their best? Yes, they're not perfect and they may not support the club in the way you think they should, but that doesn't make them bad guys.

 

[scousedom]

I understand the sentiment, but I’m not sure I can work out who or what you’d be fighting - especially as you might be in the minority now. Thousands of people are going back every home game - it’s possible the echo chamber of this forum is distorting our view of that.

And there remains the growing distance between the management/players and supporters. That’s been going on for so long now it seems entirely intentional - unless they’ve got a desire to change that, how do you force them to?

I agree with this, I think. It will be difficult. I’m the wrong person in many ways to reply and so I defer to others - as I said, I’ve been off to the side for the last two years trying to sneakily play football with my four year old when the stewards are looking the other way - but going on yesterday I think if we can reclaim the centre ground (physically, not politically!) and be vocal a lot may follow.

On the team engagement point, I think we can raise that directly.

I also think some bigger initiatives that are very much fan culture centred would help. Stuff that emphasises the long term nature of the club and its fanbase and the relationships we’ve built around the game and the reasons behind them and the reputation we have as a result.

 

[peckhamasbestos]

not sure about the criticism of Ben, can't think of anyone better placed to do the job, nor anyone who would have done a better job for the club. Sometimes I stand near him behind the goal, that's because I sometimes stand behind the goal, and because he stands behind the goal. He's the chairman of the club, supporting his club from the stands, behind the goal. It's not a perfect world, but in terms of navigating the ongoing shitstorms the club's been subjected to, I have 100% confidence in management (both administrative and playing)

 

[tonysingh]

For me, the disconnect between the club I fell in love with 32, 33 years ago hasn't just occurred now fans are allowed back in to games. It's been building for a few seasons and really reached a head when we lost Mishi. The whole atmosphere has changed and in such a way that its irrevocable without disenfranchising a lot of people.

Hopefully a forward can be found to accommodate old school dinosaurs like me and newer fans too (and even ninja level wind up merchants like B.I.G !) but personally I just can't do 3500 crowds with no room to move especially if we're attracting Soccer AM celebrity worshipping banter merchants like has been mentioned further back in this thread. For me, Dulwich Hamlet was the antithesis of that sort of thing back in the days when we got 300 a game, and it was the same when crowds grew. I turn up now and I feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.

Maybe the clubs rise means it ls time for old school dinosaurs like me to wander out to pasture. Maybe the club and the newer supporters have outgrown the likes of us or vice versa. Lockdown has made me personally reassess my own priorities and I find myself saddened to say that the pink n blue have slipped down that list.

 

[AveryDave]

Maybe the clubs rise means it ls time for old school dinosaurs like me to wander out to pasture. Maybe the club and the newer supporters have outgrown the likes of us or vice versa.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot today.

As disappointing as the result against Bedfont Sports was my main reflection on that game was how much I envied their players commitment and willingness to fight for a result alongside their supporters determination to make themselves heard and get behind their team, which in turn led to the obvious connection between the two groups throughout and afterwards.

It doesn’t feel like too long ago where you could see and feel the same at Dulwich Hamlet, but at the moment it’s hard to see a way to get it back when there’s ever growing and blatant disregard shown for the supporters by the management and players.

 

[tonysingh]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot today.

As disappointing as the result against Bedfont Sports was my main reflection on that game was how much I envied their players commitment and willingness to fight for a result alongside their supporters determination to make themselves heard and get behind their team, which in turn led to the obvious connection between the two groups throughout and afterwards.

It doesn’t feel like too long ago where you could see and feel the same at Dulwich Hamlet, but at the moment it’s hard to see a way to get it back.

People mention the Rabble on here as if it still exists which is frankly laughable. For the last few seasons it's certainly felt to me that any atmosphere we have had is more performative than it is genuine.

On the other hand we cannot expect a supporter who's just turned up, metaphorically speaking, to slip into the same role we more seasoned ones play. This is where i think we have messed up. We've sat back and welcomed the new arrivals which is great, inclusivity is at the heart of what I love about the club but we haven't managed to control the atmosphere and what made the club great.

The Rabble is dead and will never be resurrected, simple as that. It was a creation of its time and place and its an insult to the memory of loved and lost supporters to think otherwise. What I pray can happen is that the club somehow steps back from what it currently seems to be stepping towards.

We had 400 fans away at maidstone before lockdown. Four hundred! That's amazing to me. But nary a peep to be heard aside from asinine clapping after a performance so poor it made me want to get punched by another steward. If the Rabble were still extant then we would have ripped the roof off with noise.

 

[darryl]

Maybe the Brixton Buzz needs to cast a more critical eye with an actual “why has the rabble Dulwich atmosphere disappeared” news post (and on Twitter) rather than forum posts.
This is not meant to be a shitty comment, more a serious one.
What is currently advertised at DHFC isn’t the reality, so remove Rabble references and Tuscany references etc - that doesn’t exist anymore and probably has only once this season when the old skool & well versed Finn took over an away match early doors.

Dulwich Hamlet lose 2-1 at home to Billericay Town in front of record Champion Hill attendance of 3,334 – yet still this club needs ‘saving’

Dulwich Hamlet lost 2-1 at home to Billericay Town on Saturday in front of a Champion Hill record attendance of 3,334.

www.brixtonbuzz.com

 

[scousedom]

Dulwich Hamlet lose 2-1 at home to Billericay Town in front of record Champion Hill attendance of 3,334 – yet still this club needs ‘saving’

Dulwich Hamlet lost 2-1 at home to Billericay Town on Saturday in front of a Champion Hill record attendance of 3,334.

www.brixtonbuzz.com

Lol at the last photo.

 

[darryl]

I didn't go yesterday - I feared it'd be as everyone else has described and have been feeling this way about Saturday 3pm crowds for quite a while. I'm sorry to see it's all come to a head now, but hopefully something positive can come out of this.

It's only eight years since I first pitched up at Dulwich - and I've got to know so many wonderful people through my trips to Champion Hill. I've got endless time for those who helped save the club. And things change naturally - we all get older, our circumstances change, we do different things. But something's obviously gone wrong. Remember when the ground was packed for that Maidstone match and it was a thrilling novelty? The ground can't sustain that week in, week out.

Pre-pandemic, people who voiced doubts about the big crowds got shouted down on here - I guess now we've had a reminder of the value of seeing friends in person in a familiar and cherished environment, it's tiring to have it disrupted by ever-bigger crowds, mystifyingly turning up in their thousands for a drink in the sunshine and to occasionally catch a glimpse of a football match.

I picked up a season-ticket for 20/21 thinking it might be my last because of my misgivings about the huge crowds, but I still wanted to support the club financially. I let it roll over to this season, but haven't been to a Saturday 3pm yet - went to the Hungerford match the other Sunday (which was great fun) and am trying to get to the women's games because I've really enjoyed those. I saw the big push for the Billericay match and decided to give it a swerve.

Reduce capacity to 2k max. Rethink the focus on beer (much as I love it) it's not for everyone and doesn't make it the family friendly vibe we think it is. More local kids coming to games. Emphasise the diversity of South London. Do more to actively show community engagement on match days. Replace the tannoy. Introduce local community groups onto the pitch before the game. Focus on a five mile perimeter of engagement. Fuck "raising awareness" nationally - we have big enough fish to fry in Southwark and Lewisham

This hits the nail squarely on the head - the Hungerford crowd was 2,000 and manageable. But what really worries me is how much the club's finances seem to depend on selling booze (Tracey Crouch: "They said openly in evidence to us that they cannot afford to get promoted because of the rules around alcohol"). I don't know how you solve this, but being a beer garden with a football club attached isn't much fun if you've got to share it with 3,300 other people for the place to survive; especially when we've lost a big area of space where families would go and kids would run around to install a bar.

I see Peter Crouch has come to save us - has he experience in the hospitality business, then?

 

[gashead92]

Evening all.

Quick background, lifelong Bristol Rovers fan, lived in London for 10 years and Dulwich for 18 months. Saturday was the second Hamlet game i've attended what with the pandemic and everything.

A couple of comments from my experience on Saturday.

People either side of me chatting away with their pints, basically having a catch up throughout not just the match but the minutes applause which I found deeply offensive. Not really bothered at all with what was going on on the pitch and seemed a bit surprised by both my celebration of the Hamlet goal and my shouting of frustration at the referee and lino. It's an odd experience to feel like the odd one out when simply supporting a football team at a football match.

That said, it's still revenue for the club which certainly cant be sniffed at, at any level of football. So I'm happy to accept the fact that for many the football is just the background entertainment/noise.

What I have found strange in my short time following the club and the 2 matches I've attended is the complete disconnect between the playing and coaching staff and the fans? There's no pre or post match interviews, and the interaction between players and fans is virtually non existent when coming onto the pitch pre match and when leaving the pitch post match. Also felt like a complete lack of urgency from the players later in the game and it felt like they would've been satisfied with a point when at 1-2 with 30 minutes left I thought all 3 points were very clearly there for the taking still with a little more ambition.

All this is to say I can fully appreciate why lifelong fans of the club may feel disillusioned with the product on the field and goings on around the club.

 

[pengedragon]

ally bothered at all with what was going on on the pitch and seemed a bit surprised by both my celebration of the Hamlet goal and my shouting of frustration at the referee and lino. It's an odd experience to feel like the odd one out when simply supporting a football team at a football match.

Ha, this definitely resonates with me

"look darling, it's an actual football supporter, how quaint"

 

[Taper]

The problems start with the insipid performances of the team. If they were a team you could get behind and who connected with fans, then i don't think we'd be having a discussion like this.

 

[Christian Burt]

Dulwich Hamlet lose 2-1 at home to Billericay Town in front of record Champion Hill attendance of 3,334 – yet still this club needs ‘saving’

Dulwich Hamlet lost 2-1 at home to Billericay Town on Saturday in front of a Champion Hill record attendance of 3,334.

www.brixtonbuzz.com

Decent piece and needed.

 

[blueheaven]

There are too many people that come to the games nowadays and either a) only go for the bar, or b) don’t end up watching the football and stand with their backs to the game (which probably wasn’t a bad idea for yesterday’s performance).

This is something that I really struggle to get my head around. When you sit in the stand during packed-out games you can see that there are many, many people standing three or even four rows back from the side of the pitch, with basically zero chance of seeing any of the game - and as far as I've ever been able to tell, they don't seem to be at all bothered by that. I've always gone to football matches first and foremost to watch football. I just don't see the appeal of paying to get into a football stadium, to stand in the cold, in an uncomfortably-squashed crowd, and have to queue for ages to get each drink - and not even see the football match. If people just want to drink and chat with their mates rather than watch the football, then fine - but if that was me, I'd much rather just go to a pub.

Whatever their motivation, it seems unsustainable to me. I just can't see people with minimal interest in the actual football continuing to go week in, week out, in crap weather, for year after year. But when the novelty wears off and those people start to drift away, how many of the old regulars who actually care about the club will be left?

 

[Stuart Fordyce]

It is bizarre. I wasn't there on Saturday but at the Bedfont game there were four adults and a roughly 8 year old boy next to me. All the adults were talking about house prices in Oxfordshire and not actually watching the game at all. It's like a beer festival on one side of the fence and Gavin Rose plays Football Manager on the other.

Also, politely, do people really need to spend so long in the beer queues? I know it blows a hole in the club's business model, and Hamlet often drive you to drink, but I can manage 90 minutes without a pint. If I have to - I had three pints at Croydon during the week and that wasn't really enough.

My first regular game was at home to Dartford a couple of years ago (we won 2-0 and Dartford's Tom Bonner headbutted his own goalkeeper deliberately) and there was about 1,500 there. Between that and 2,000 ish gives a decent atmosphere, and can still see. My wife is only 5' 2" so we have to get next to the barrier for her to see.

The other thing is in many aspects Hamlet are a massive anomaly - the crowds we get are off the charts compared to anything else in non-league and does require a different infrastructure compared to getting 500 or so. It's a league club off the park...

 

[Blitzwalker]

I've held back from commenting until now and have thought long and hard about this over the weekend. I went on Saturday but because of cricket and other commitments so far, this was only the second game I've managed to get to (Bedfont was the first!) Obviously, like everyone else the amount of football I've watched over the past 18 months has been next to nothing and only managed to watch the Eastbourne game at home last season just before lockdown kicked in again.

Saturday was not an enjoyable experience, both on and off the field and the only redeeming factor was bumping into some of the many friends I've made at the Hamlet over the past eight years or so. I can understand why people baled out at half time - uncomfortably crowded, people simply not watching the game but chatting all the way through it, massive queues for the bars and the toilets and the clubhouse basically out of bounds until after the game.

There is also undeniably a massive disconnect between management/players and the supporters, not that many of those in the ground on Saturday would have known or cared who they were watching, such was the "beer garden" atmosphere. When we did get into the clubhouse after the game, there was no connection between the players and the support - in fact, I had more of a chat with Michael Chambers, now playing for the opposition, than with any of our players.

Of course, I'll still go when I can and hopefully the Maidstone game in a couple of Tuesdays time should be less crowded but next time I see warnings of a potential 3,000+ crowd, I'll probably be giving it a swerve.

Of course, everything changes and the club evolves but to me, we've lost something along the way. The community spirit and togetherness that attracted me to the club seems to have evaporated in favour of a corporate atmosphere and something of a performing circus for the reality tv cameras. Sad but such is football these days. This is in no way meant to denigrate those within the club who work so hard to keep things afloat but in my opinion, we need to be taking a careful look at the direction the club is going.

 

[AveryDave]

The community spirit and togetherness that attracted me to the club seems to have evaporated in favour of a corporate atmosphere and something of a performing circus for the reality tv cameras.

On an associated note, I wonder how the production company with their pre-formed narrative of a non-league club in financial jeopardy are going to deal with record crowds and queues for hours telling a different story? Other than put it all down to good old Crouchy, of course.

 

[tonysingh]

On an associated note, I wonder how the production company with their pre-formed narrative of a non-league club in financial jeopardy are going to deal with record crowds and queues for hours telling a different story? Other than put it all down to good old Crouchy, of course.

The problem is that some our lot will absolutely play up to that stereotype of worshipping celebrity.

 

[Moroccan Sunset]

The problems start with the insipid performances of the team. If they were a team you could get behind and who connected with fans, then i don't think we'd be having a discussion like this.

This is absolutely spot on. I'm a seasoned fan of 23 years years and I can't be arsed to get behind the team, so why would the new recruits get excited by a side that seems to play in total isolation to the thousands of supporters there to watch them? The problem is centred on the football itself.

 

[Moroccan Sunset]

Whatever their motivation, it seems unsustainable to me. I just can't see people with minimal interest in the actual football continuing to go week in, week out, in crap weather, for year after year. But when the novelty wears off and those people start to drift away, how many of the old regulars who actually care about the club will be left?

I think you're absolutely right - they will, ultimately start to drift away, if - big, humunguous 'if' - there's nothing to engage them or keep them coming back. Why would you go to DHFC when you can just go to a pub and spend the £12 entenace fee on a couple of extra pints?

This is why it is so important and urgent, IMO, that we mend the disconnect between players/mamagement and fans, and start playing football that is worth bloody watching.

Although as I'm typing this I do really wonder why I'm bothering. It's been said 1000s of times before - not just by me - and there is no fucking change.

 

[B.I.G]

I think you're absolutely right - they will, ultimately start to drift away, if - big, humunguous 'if' - there's nothing to engage them or keep them coming back. Why would you go to DHFC when you can just go to a pub and spend the £12 entenace fee on a couple of extra pints?

This is why it is so important and urgent, IMO, that we mend the disconnect between players/mamagement and fans, and start playing that it worth bloody watching.

Although as I'm typing this I do really wonder why I'm bothering. It's been said 1000s of times before - not just by me - and there is no fucking change.

You can’t blame Ben though? Maybe you will when Gavin is back next year.

 

[Stuart Fordyce]

You can’t blame Ben though? Maybe you will when Gavin is back next year.

When is Gavin's deal up? I thought he was on a three year deal but I can't remember when it starts and ends!

 

[B.I.G]

When is Gavin's deal up? I thought he was on a three year deal but I can't remember when it starts and ends!

I believe this year so hopefully he finally manages to get the role he has been angling for otherwise no doubt he will award himself a new contract.

 

[Moroccan Sunset]

You can’t blame Ben though? Maybe you will when Gavin is back next year.

Didn't say I don't blame Ben, because ultimately I do, him and the rest of the board. These 4 pages of upset and disillusionment are down to their inactions.

Doesn't mean I don't have respect for the bloke. Some of the things he's done that have been kept out of the public eye are incredibly generous and kind, and for that I'll never write him off.

 

[StephenMac]

Genuinely fascinated by Saturday appearing to be the tipping point for many. I had no intention of going once it became apparent that it was going to be packed out but felt it was right to be there to honour DC.

Taking everything into consideration that's been said here, i'm sticking with my feeling that the capacity has to be reduced, and substantially. I'm not sure how some kind of purity test can be applied to ensure that only people who want to watch the game can come in, or even if that's at all desirable anyway. The beer garden crowd (which has grown exponentially) would still be there to a degree but there would be more space to avoid them and not hear every inane word of the jibber jabber. That would be just a pleasant unplanned consequence though, the issue is that the infrastructure just isn't remotely there to have 3,300+ in the ground.

I get it all about how our playing budget isn't as big as many assume it to be, based on gates. We have low season ticket prices, generous (some would say overly-generous) concession prices, extensive running costs due to the standard of a fast-decaying ground and, more happily, more people being paid a wage to do a job of work at the club.

BUT I would suggest that the playing budget should literally be based on whatever is left after all bills and staff have been paid and whatever needs to be squirrelled away for a rainy day has been put under the mattress. If lowering the capacity then means an Isthmian South playing budget then so be it - it's about running a football club well and if the management don't like that then they can find themselves somewhere else to ply their trade. If the financial boost which Saturday and any subsequent over-attended games leads to a load of new players then i'm done with home games. If the manager moans about that in the SLP, as his chosen mode of communication with the mugs who pay his wages, then use that money to pay him off and get shot.

While the idea that the shareholders are making money off the current situation is obviously nonsense and Ben is, contrary to one misinformed contributor on here, not actually the anti-christ, there does seem to be a bit of a shortfall in accountability on how the club is being run. Isn't this where the Supporters' Trust comes in? From an outsiders perspective, the primary role of the Trust still seems to be one of free labour to be used by the club on match days and beyond. Fair play to anyone who signs up for that, I never have, but does it operate as a representative body of the supporter base. Does it lobby, especially now it has places on the club board, to improve the 'match day experience'? Genuine question, not a criticism. A few people having a go at Ben after the game isn't the same thing, especially once drink has been taken and emotions are a little charged.

The beer garden crowd probably weren't happy on Saturday either, but due to bar and toilet queues rather than anything else. So let's say 1,000 of them decide against returning in future, there'll probably be another 1,000 to take their place and have that same experience, then there'll probably another 1,000 to take their place.... and on we go. But, it may feel like it but there isn't actually an inexhaustible supply of people who (very, very) weirdly choose to pay £12 to get in to an overly full beer garden, then queue for 20 minutes to either get a pint or have a piss. What happens then? Crowds will start falling but will the hardcore support who have either already walked away or are currently considering doing so return? I think it's unlikely. I'm sure they already do but I really, really hope the club see the extraordinary growth in crowds as likely being an aberration in the long run. Maybe it isn't but non-league is littered with clubs who temporarily had big gates and struggled to adapt once they went away.

 

[Moroccan Sunset]

Have to say I find it incredibly disappointing and worrying that no one from the club has commented here. Every one is entitled to a break/weekend but it's now Monday afternoon and there's no been no attempt to acknowledge the upset here.

I accept my weekly rants are the equivalent of screaming into the abyss, but this is probably the angriest I've seen Urban75 ever. There's a variety of supporters here, from old dinosuars to newbies, who are talking about not renewing season tickets, or not attending games as frequently or at all. These aren't just grumbles - this is deep-rooted disillusionment in something that many people have come to love and support on a weekly basis. And yet no one from the board has come on here to address the issues around overcrowding, disconnect between management/players and fans, general sense of disengagement etc.

There is no excuse. Any one of them is capable of setting up an account and posting here, and if none them have actually been online to read these comments after Saturday, then really that says it all.

And for the sake of clarity, I don't want any response from liamdhfc, as it's usually him that comes on here and attempts to address some of the shit that clearly is not his own doing.