Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[Johnny Canuck3]

In fact not a single poster on the thread argued with her direct criticism of Trump's disgusting mocking of the disabled journalist.

That's very charitable.

But prior to my post about it, I don't think anybody else even mentioned the fact that many of her comments were directed to that event.

Reading the comments here, one would get the impression that her speech was mostly an attack directed against Trump voters - which is twisting things [as you say] so that the relevant posters can level a full-scale barrage.

The crux of her talk, the bulk of it, was a disparagement of Trump.

 

[Wilf]

He's a gobshite with a short fuse *and* a racist who plans to screw the poor, which is a dangerous combination - what kind of stupid shit is he going to come out with next time there is a big Black Lives Matter protest over a police shooting?

I'm not really disagreeing to be honest. However I think it's unclear how much his psychological traits will affect things on the ground. He's certainly going to be vindictive and will go after people who attack him - the difference to other presidents being he'll attack them personally rather than leaving it to his courtiers. There's also likely to be a lack of deferred gratifications, shoot from the hip style. All this will certainly have an effect. However there's also a chance some of this will alienate republicans in congress. In the end though what will be different about Trump will be how different his brand of neo-liberalism will be to what has gone before.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not really disagreeing to be honest. However I think it's unclear how much his psychological traits will affect things on the ground. He's certainly going to be vindictive and will go after people who attack him - the difference to other presidents being he'll attack them personally rather than leaving it to his courtiers. There's also likely to be a lack of deferred gratifications, shoot from the hip style. All this will certainly have an effect. However there's also a chance some of this will alienate republicans in congress. In the end though what will be different about Trump will be how different his brand of neo-liberalism will be to what has gone before.

...and hopefully how people respond. Maybe that added element of racism/misogyny/everything will be that push required to make generic opposition prepared to go further - to make, as the saying goes, things ungovernable.

 

[campanula]

Thing is, Cri, for this uneducated northern working class woman, Trump (and Tories) are actually the enemy, the oppo, ireddeemably vile hateful scum who exist only to be despised. The so-called Left (Democrats and NuLabour) otoh have been the betrayers, the thieves of hope and trust, the manipulators who have enabled a political system where they tendentiously mouth off about meritocracy - another sort of American Dream, hard working families blah blah while absolutely policing every aspect of life to ensure that a small privileged class simply use politics as just another career choice as they scale that greasy pole (stamping on the faces of those below them). By 'social liberalism', they simply mean that they would share a dinner table with a homosexual while caring not one whit for the discontents of unemployed shipbuilders or dockers. I recall being discouraged to apply for a teaching position because I had a conviction for shoplifting...and being told that this was actually 'worse' than a conviction for possession of drugs because, hey, lets roll up a racy little spliff but hmmm, shoplifting, a crime of poor women...don't know any of them.
So when this so-called Left dismisses the concerns of the working class (such as housing) as being somehow beneath mention, or certainly nothing which exists in their little bubble (until it actually impacts on their lives as it is finally doing so now), then the utter dismay at the vicious contempt they display while simultaneously polishing their virtuous haloes does indeed begin to grate. Do you really fail to appreciate the anger when yet again, a working class movement is hijacked (and monetised) by a small elite class of self-referential, public school educated fuckwits who choose politics - potentially a life or death scenario - as a vehicle for their personal enrichment and then cement this with a sneering disdain for anyone else who fails to fully appreciate the intellectual pomo charade for the high calorie, empty nutrition meal on offer...or the crumbs from the (high) table?
The Trumps, Bush family, Cameron and May are, and will always be the enemy...but when our supposed saviours (who, we are told, 'represent' us) , the useless Millibands, Obamas and (shudder) the apotheosis of liberal privilege, Clinton, turn out to be EXACTLY THE SAME....where do we go from there?

 

[coley]

Thing is, Cri, for this uneducated northern working class woman, Trump (and Tories) are actually the enemy, the oppo, ireddeemably vile hateful scum who exist only to be despised. The so-called Left (Democrats and NuLabour) otoh have been the betrayers, the thieves of hope and trust, the manipulators who have enabled a political system where they tendentiously mouth off about meritocracy - another sort of American Dream, hard working families blah blah while absolutely policing every aspect of life to ensure that a small privileged class simply use politics as just another career choice as they scale that greasy pole (stamping on the faces of those below them). By 'social liberalism', they simply mean that they would share a dinner table with a homosexual while caring not one whit for the discontents of unemployed shipbuilders or dockers. I recall being discouraged to apply for a teaching position because I had a conviction for shoplifting...and being told that this was actually 'worse' than a conviction for possession of drugs because, hey, lets roll up a racy little spliff but hmmm, shoplifting, a crime of poor women...don't know any of them.
So when this so-called Left dismisses the concerns of the working class (such as housing) as being somehow beneath mention, or certainly nothing which exists in their little bubble (until it actually impacts on their lives as it is finally doing so now), then the utter dismay at the vicious contempt they display while simultaneously polishing their virtuous haloes does indeed begin to grate. Do you really fail to appreciate the anger when yet again, a working class movement is hijacked (and monetised) by a small elite class of self-referential, public school educated fuckwits who choose politics - potentially a life or death scenario - as a vehicle for their personal enrichment and then cement this with a sneering disdain for anyone else who fails to fully appreciate the intellectual pomo charade for the high calorie, empty nutrition meal on offer...or the crumbs from the (high) table?
The Trumps, Bush family, Cameron and May are, and will always be the enemy...but when our supposed saviours (who, we are told, 'represent' us) , the useless Millibands, Obamas and (shudder) the apotheosis of liberal privilege, Clinton, turn out to be EXACTLY THE SAME....where do we go from there?

Cracking good post

 

[camouflage]

I'm not really disagreeing to be honest. However I think it's unclear how much his psychological traits will affect things on the ground. He's certainly going to be vindictive and will go after people who attack him - the difference to other presidents being he'll attack them personally rather than leaving it to his courtiers. There's also likely to be a lack of deferred gratifications, shoot from the hip style. All this will certainly have an effect. However there's also a chance some of this will alienate republicans in congress. In the end though what will be different about Trump will be how different his brand of neo-liberalism will be to what has gone before.

You really think Trump is a neoliberal? I ask because I don't.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Christ, where did you find that?

One of my favourite shows when I was little. Druckers store was spookily like the one we had in the village. Arnold Ziffle was the best character of all. I'd still like to have a son like Arnold Ziffle!

Will be completely lost on most folk here.

We had a little general store too. You could still buy horse blankets, corn shuckers, and fishing gear along with the penny candy. The few people who still live there shop at the Walmart in the city now. Those little stores don't exist any more people because the population has been hollowed out down to anyone who doesn't have the means to move.

 

[coley]

You really think Trump is a neoliberal? I ask because I don't.

Really depends on your definition of " Neoliberal". Doesn't it?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Hate him, distrust him, have a strange desire to lick his toes ( come in Trump and Casually Red ) but Putin has a way of attracting the useful idiot.

He's got a real winner in Donald Trump.

Anyone with that big of an ego can be lead around by it.

 

[coley]

He's got a real winner in Donald Trump.

Anyone with that big of an ego can be lead around by it.

Just wondering how long he gets to dance to Putins tune before reality kicks in, because since his election, even those republicans who hated him seem to be finding excuses for his antics.

 

[eoin_k]

...
It was responding to some member who kept bringing up this or that that Hilary did when of she's no out of the frame. I think for some folks here, this really does seem just like an intellectual exercise. That's fair enough - America is far away, Presidents have come and gone in the past couple decade with very little impact on people in the UK, why should it be that different now?
...

Hillary Clinton's largest backer made billions from a speculative attack on sterling, which plunged this country into a recession. The idea that the politics she represents has no effect on people in this country is laughable.

 

[butchersapron]

The idea that europe isn't being effected by the invasion of Iraq is equally laughable.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Just wondering how long he gets to dance to Putins tune before reality kicks in, because since his election, even those republicans who hated him seem to be finding excuses for his antics.

A long time. The party doesn't care as long as they have power and Donald Trump is incapable of admitting that he's been had.

 

[camouflage]

Really depends on your definition of " Neoliberal". Doesn't it?

Sure, I guess. In terms of the standard un-examined assumption of what "neoliberalism" means (more transaction volume = good, freedom of movement for capital, renteerism, transnational trade agreements to lock it all in, weakening of the state as a publicly owned machine even as a principal). Trumps position on NAFTA, his protectionist ideas re China... I don't think he's a neolib. He's an old school industrial capitalist who doesn't quite understand the disruptive aspects of his preferences on the neoliberal order, like he doesn't understand what NATO is for. These elements of his ignorance are his appealing features in my opinion.

 

[camouflage]

Just wondering how long he gets to dance to Putins tune before reality kicks in, because since his election, even those republicans who hated him seem to be finding excuses for his antics.

Will you expand on what "dancing to Putins tune" means exactly?

 

[coley]

Sure, I guess. In terms of the standard un-examined assumption of what "neoliberalism" means (more transaction volume = good, freedom of movement for capital, renteerism, transnational trade agreements to lock it all in, weakening of the state as a publicly owned machine even as a principal). Trumps position on NAFTA, his protectionist ideas re China... I don't think he's a neolib. He's an old school industrial capitalist who doesn't quite understand the disruptive aspects of his preferences on the neoliberal order, like he doesn't understand what NATO is for. These elements of his ignorance are his appealing features in my opinion.

You bought all that?

 

[Wilf]

You really think Trump is a neoliberal? I ask because I don't.

Suppose I was using the term pejoratively. But yes, I know what you mean, he's an aggressive capitalist and free marketer, but his position on trade takes him away from the recent definitions of neo-liberalism. Of course whether he really seeks to bring industries back onto American soil remains to be seen. It's unlikely and in the end his 4/8 years are likely to be a variation to the way things have been since the 70s rather than a challenge to the neo-liberal project - certainly from the perspective of class politics.

 

[butchersapron]

Suppose I was using the term pejoratively. But yes, I know what you mean, he's an aggressive capitalist and free marketer, but his position on trade takes him away from the recent definitions of neo-liberalism. Of course whether he really seeks to bring industries back onto American soil remains to be seen. It's unlikely and in the end his 4/8 years are likely to be a variation to the way things have been since the 70s rather than a challenge to the neo-liberal project - certainly from the perspective of class politics.

He's not an industrial capitalist though, nothing he owns or does is productive of new surplus value - it/hejust competes for the distribution of existing value or the right to make a claim on future value produced by actually productive capital. He's a financial capitalist and finance capital is the very essence of neo-liberalism.

edit: and to be honest all that he actually does today is sell the brand name of trump to other people to use on their hotels or whatever.

 

[coley]

Will you expand on what "dancing to Putins tune" means exactly?

Very publicly rubbishing his intelligence agencies and praising Putin for being 'restrained" for starters.

 

[maomao]

Very publicly rubbishing his intelligence agencies and praising Putin for being 'restrained" for starters.

That's more of a scrap with the outgoing administration than anything else. Putin doesn't gain anything from Trump praising him to the US population.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

That's more of a scrap with the outgoing administration than anything else. Putin doesn't gain anything from Trump praising him to the US population.

Putin would like the sanctions dropped. One of the impediments to that is the US population not trusting "the Russkies." With Trump praising him, there's greater likelihood that the sanctions can be dropped. Trump would be all for dropping sanctions because he's positioned to make millions off it himself.

 

[coley]

Putin would like the sanctions dropped. One of the impediments to that is the US population not trusting "the Russkies." With Trump praising him, there's greater likelihood that the sanctions can be dropped. Trump would be all for dropping sanctions because he's positioned to make millions off it himself.

As are his newly elected Cabel.

 

[coley]

That's more of a scrap with the outgoing administration than anything else. Putin doesn't gain anything from Trump praising him to the US population.

But Putin gains a lot from the Russian population.

 

[CrabbedOne]

Trump often appears to be a mercantilist but claims to be pro-free trade. He not very consistent but probably just wants any trade agreement to favour US interests as he defines them. His criticism of Reagan's baby NAFTA is mainly that it does not do that and he'd therefore renegotiate it with harsher terms that the US with its considerable clout can probably extract. He's quite eager to make a free trade deal with the UK for instance and I'm sure will merrily try to shaft the naive Brexiters for every buck he can.

Even more controversially in GOP terms he's long been anti-NATO apparently seeing it at best as a low return, failing US protection racket. He's appears just as eager as Exxon to work with Russia on energy and in other areas. He's very hostile to the key US's commercial partnership with China. He talks about tariff barriers like the one erected to protect US steel production from Chinese dumping. There's a neocon school of thought that Nixon made peace with the wrong Commies. Lurking at the back of this is the Bush-era conviction that a nice target rich war over Taiwan might put the uppity Red Chinese in their place. This is the war that 9-11 derailed and we went to Baghdad instead. It would probably be even more catastrophic for US interests and the wider globalised order.

In other ways he's just neoliberal Reagan on steroids. He's aiming at big elite tax cuts, massive deregulation, gutting the EPA, unleashing the extractive industries, fat layers of defence pork and essentially privatising US infrastructure construction.

Looking at his finance team he's certainly not draining the swamp. It's built for straightforward crony capitalism that will greatly favour Wall St and in particular will favour some hedge funders that backed him. Their big reward is an attempted Fanny&Freddie privatisation, the US mortgage market the costs of whose collapse was socialised and now is highly profitable once more. Potentially a massive boondoggle until it goes bust once more and has to be rescued.

This is the first indication that a lot of what Trump said was tactical campaign trail BS. Behind a Potemkin Village of populism he'll cleave to featherbedding elite interests including his own. A large pinch of salt probably needs to be added to his grandstanding on trade protectionism favouring the little guy. In business he has always had a good conman's pleasure in a grift as part of the art of the deal. It is likely no different in politics.

I would not trust him on Russia either. An opportunist like Putin is quite likely to unable to resist trying to fuck him. Trump is thin skinned and very volatile. He does not take such things well and has a vindictive streak. George Bush's humble foreign policy also vanished rather quickly. And that got him a second term. I think a proper shooting war on Trump's watch is rather likely.

 

[camouflage]

Trump often appears to be a mercantilist but claims to be pro-free trade. He not very consistent but probably just wants any trade agreement to favour US interests as he defines them. His criticism of Reagan's baby NAFTA is mainly that it does not do that and he'd therefore renegotiate it with harsher terms that the US with its considerable clout can probably extract. He's quite eager to make a free trade deal with the UK for instance and I'm sure will merrily try to shaft the naive Brexiters for every buck he can.

Even more controversially in GOP terms he's long been anti-NATO apparently seeing it at best as a low return, failing US protection racket. He's appears just as eager as Exxon to work with Russia on energy and in other areas. He's very hostile to the key US's commercial partnership with China. He talks about tariff barriers like the one erected to protect US steel production from Chinese dumping. There's a neocon school of thought that Nixon made peace with the wrong Commies. Lurking at the back of this is the Bush-era conviction that a nice target rich war over Taiwan might put the uppity Red Chinese in their place. This is the war that 9-11 derailed and we went to Baghdad instead. It would probably be even more catastrophic for US interests and the wider globalised order.

In other ways he's just neoliberal Reagan on steroids. He's aiming at big elite tax cuts, massive deregulation, gutting the EPA, unleashing the extractive industries, fat layers of defence pork and essentially privatising US infrastructure construction.

Looking at his finance team he's certainly not draining the swamp. It's built for straightforward crony capitalism that will greatly favour Wall St and in particular will favour some hedge funders that backed him. Their big reward is an attempted Fanny&Freddie privatisation, the US mortgage market the costs of whose collapse was socialised and now is highly profitable once more. Potentially a massive boondoggle until it goes bust once more and has to be rescued.

This is the first indication that a lot of what Trump said was tactical campaign trail BS. Behind a Potemkin Village of populism he'll cleave to featherbedding elite interests including his own. A large pinch of salt probably needs to be added to his grandstanding on trade protectionism favouring the little guy. In business he has always had a good conman's pleasure in a grift as part of the art of the deal. It is likely no different in politics.

I would not trust him on Russia either. An opportunist like Putin is quite likely to unable to resist trying to fuck him. Trump is thin skinned and very volatile. He does not take such things well and has a vindictive streak. George Bush's humble foreign policy also vanished rather quickly. And that got him a second term. I think a proper shooting war on Trump's watch is rather likely.

If that lot really is Trump's secret name then it's a good thing he's managed to unite the Left and progressives against him. Hillary would be more or less the same (sans War on Russia Faction vs War on China Faction stuff) but the 'Left' and 'progressives' would be singing her praises and slipping back into a dreamless sleep even as the same shit goes on (see Obama era). I take it Trump can't expect to be handed a Nobel Peace Prize any time soon then.

 

[camouflage]

Very publicly rubbishing his intelligence agencies and praising Putin for being 'restrained" for starters.

Not convinced by the starter. You got anything more convincing?

 

[coley]

Not convinced by the starter. You got anything more convincing?

@buchersapron spells it out in detail.

 

[Casually Red]

Thing is, Cri, for this uneducated northern working class woman, Trump (and Tories) are actually the enemy, the oppo, ireddeemably vile hateful scum who exist only to be despised. The so-called Left (Democrats and NuLabour) otoh have been the betrayers, the thieves of hope and trust, the manipulators who have enabled a political system where they tendentiously mouth off about meritocracy - another sort of American Dream, hard working families blah blah while absolutely policing every aspect of life to ensure that a small privileged class simply use politics as just another career choice as they scale that greasy pole (stamping on the faces of those below them). By 'social liberalism', they simply mean that they would share a dinner table with a homosexual while caring not one whit for the discontents of unemployed shipbuilders or dockers. I recall being discouraged to apply for a teaching position because I had a conviction for shoplifting...and being told that this was actually 'worse' than a conviction for possession of drugs because, hey, lets roll up a racy little spliff but hmmm, shoplifting, a crime of poor women...don't know any of them.
So when this so-called Left dismisses the concerns of the working class (such as housing) as being somehow beneath mention, or certainly nothing which exists in their little bubble (until it actually impacts on their lives as it is finally doing so now), then the utter dismay at the vicious contempt they display while simultaneously polishing their virtuous haloes does indeed begin to grate. Do you really fail to appreciate the anger when yet again, a working class movement is hijacked (and monetised) by a small elite class of self-referential, public school educated fuckwits who choose politics - potentially a life or death scenario - as a vehicle for their personal enrichment and then cement this with a sneering disdain for anyone else who fails to fully appreciate the intellectual pomo charade for the high calorie, empty nutrition meal on offer...or the crumbs from the (high) table?
The Trumps, Bush family, Cameron and May are, and will always be the enemy...but when our supposed saviours (who, we are told, 'represent' us) , the useless Millibands, Obamas and (shudder) the apotheosis of liberal privilege, Clinton, turn out to be EXACTLY THE SAME....where do we go from there?

Fucking top notch.

 

[Casually Red]

Putin would like the sanctions dropped. One of the impediments to that is the US population not trusting "the Russkies." With Trump praising him, there's greater likelihood that the sanctions can be dropped. Trump would be all for dropping sanctions because he's positioned to make millions off it himself.

How exactly ?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A long time. The party doesn't care as long as they have power and Donald Trump is incapable of admitting that he's been had.

An interesting counterpoint to that idea:

Why Russia Cannot Become Our Friend: Memo to President Trump

The gist of the article is that Putin maintains power in Russia by hyping the idea that the country is a besieged fortress, with the US being the primary invader. As a result, Putin can't go too far in a rapproachment with Trump before he starts to undermine his own power base.