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Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

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It could be incompetence, it could be teenagers, it could be all sorts of things.

I'm just not clear on the absolute, flat denial by many people that there is any possibility that Russia could be involved.

As I've said a couple of times now, the neutralization of the threat of a nuclear war seems an eminently justifiable use of espionage.

That being the case, imo it brings it within the realm of possibility, that Russia was involved.

Frankly, if a country thought it could prevent a nuclear war via espionage, why would it not do so?

Flatly denying that Russia could have been involved is absurd, but to suggest that its likely only they could have been involved is as absurd.

After all we aren't talking about some bloke being poisoned with polonium here, or poisoned umbrellas, we are talking about someone gaining access to the emails of someone else.
 
Flatly denying that Russia could have been involved is absurd, but to suggest that its likely only they could have been involved is as absurd.

After all we aren't talking about some bloke being poisoned with polonium here, or poisoned umbrellas, we are talking about someone gaining access to the emails of someone else.
Daily mail journalists or the fake sheikh are I believe alternative suspects
 
I didn't realise you'd asked before. Here goes.

In a racist society, white people enjoy more privilege. Thus, white, working class folks tend to enjoy more social, economic and political privilege and power than non-white working class folks. Can we agree on this?

By turning it around and citing class identity before whiteness, it suggests that the less advantaged part of your identity (i.e. being working class, compared to middle or upper class) is more important than the more privileged part of your identity - the whiteness. Whiteness then comes across as almost incidental, if not irrelevant.

It can also be used to dismiss calls from working class people of colour to shift movements on the left from centering so much on the white working class experience, with the, "but, we're all oppressed by the class system, we should focus on what unites us, not what divides us."

I've seen some try to use it as a pass to insist they aren't racist and they don't benefit from the privilege that comes from white supremacy, because working class white people have no say in creating or sustaining the class system from which racism emanates.

Before someone blows a gasket, I'm not thinking of anyone in particular from this message board and if it helps, of course "not all white working class people . . . " :rolleyes:

Some weeks ago, I posted several articles from African Americans and other people of colour explaining why relatively few non-white folks backed Bernie Saunders, which seemed to baffle white Sanders supporters. These explained the situ a lot better than I have, I'm sure.

I haven't turned anything around. Class is not an identity, it's a condition, and one that sits beside all the other facets of our lives. I guess you could put the sixth bullet's 'identities' into the correct order for her. That's the trouble with your 'politics' of identity. It's so easy to be hoisted with your own petard.

I keep well away from the 'left.' It's not of or for the working class any more. It's filled with people who may well get badly burned in the future. From what I have seen of intersectionalism in practice it's well-off and very middle class.

Even in your above post you don't seem to offer anything. I should feel bad, guilty or something. That's it.
 
That exchange was some way beyond "action against the wishes of Russia", though. Dunford gave an honest answer; to really control the airspace above Syria and stop the barrel bombings they would have to go to war with Russia and Syria - unless the Russians and Syrians dismantled all their air defences in the region.

Okay, what about this from October: Should The U.S. Double Down In Syria With A No-Fly Zone?

The idea, long resisted by the Obama administration, has been endorsed by Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton and by prominent Republicans, Democrats and defense experts. It would declare a portion of northern Syria and perhaps southern Syria off-limits to Syrian and Russian aircraft, and would enforce it with air-to-air fighters and long-range cruise missiles.

So, not just Clinton's idea?

A slim majority of Americans supports a no-fly zone despite the risks, reflecting their frustration that the United States seems to be doing nothing while Syrian civilians are dying in relentless Syrian and Russian attacks.

The table below comes from the study linked above. Looks like there support for no fly zones was pretty similar between Democrats and Republicans, and stronger support from Republicans than Democrats for direct military action, including ground forces.

Democrats were more likely to support a peace deal that kept Assad in power - which is surely also what the Putin government wants.

chart_survey-us-syria-actions_v2_624x672.jpg


Then there's this from David Petraus, whom Trump shortlisted for for his Secretary of State (before it went to Tillotson)
“People keep asking, ‘Is it too late?’ It’s not too late to declare a no-fly zone,” former CIA director and retired Army Gen. David Petraeus said on “Charlie Rose” last week.

“If the [Syrian] regime air force bombs folks we’re supporting or we’re concerned about, we tell them, ‘We’re going to ground your air force,’” Petraeus said. That threat would be backed up with readiness to take out Russian or Syrian aircraft and air bases with strike fighter and cruise missiles launched from outside Syrian airspace from American bombers or Navy ships, he said.

“Yes, there are risks,” Petraeus said, “and those risks have increased and gotten more complicated. But if you don’t show you are doing something to prevent them [Russians and Syrians] from carrying out a war crime … there is considerable risk in not taking action.”
 
I haven't turned anything around. Class is not an identity, it's a condition, and one that sits beside all the other facets of our lives. I guess you could put the sixth bullet's 'identities' into the correct order for her. That's the trouble with your 'politics' of identity. It's so easy to be hoisted with your own petard.

I keep well away from the 'left.' It's not of or for the working class any more. It's filled with people who may well get badly burned in the future. From what I have seen of intersectionalism in practice it's well-off and very middle class.

Even in your above post you don't seem to offer anything. I should feel bad, guilty or something. That's it.
You asked. I explained. You choose what to feel, or indeed to feel nothing.

I don't see my politics being of identity. "Identity politics" seems to be used more as a slur, like "political correctness" than as an accurate descriptor. I would still argue that dismantling structural inequality can only happen by acknowledging the intersecting forms and mechanisms of oppression and privilege.

I've tried to explain why the understanding of class struggle in the UK just doesn't translate neatly to the US context as many here seem to think it does. I've also pointed out that white supremacy is embedded in the foundations of the US as a nation, which of course intersects with class, gender, belief, etc. etc. Although some white Americans are overt in their racism, many white Americans who see themselves as liberal, progressive or socialist also reject the idea (e.g. Bernie Sanders and quite a few Sanders supporters.) Seems most folks here (at least the Non north American ones as far as I can work out) also reject the significance of white supremacy in the US. This, folks, is why I keep harping on about it - not because I believe racism is the only game in town.
 
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I am not denying the importance of racism by rejecting identity politics. And that is your politics, and my saying so is not meant as a slur.

It's always constant insinuation and implication with you, isn't it?
 
I am not denying the importance of racism by rejecting identity politics. And that is your politics, and my saying so is not meant as a slur.

It's always constant insinuation and implication with you, isn't it?
That's your interpretation, but it's not my intention.
 
I saw plenty posts in the Brexit forum minimising and rubbishing reports of rising racism and xenophobia after Brexit.

I don't know what posts you are referring to specifically, but if you are talking about any of my contributions, which I suspect you are, then you have completely missed the point. It's not the hate crimes that are being questioned, it's the extent of their relationship to Brexit that is. As I recall, the only person who actually minimised any racism was you in regards to this story.

Racist attack? Uh, no.

"Aleksandra Mut, 23, and younger sister Angelika Mut, 20, went berserk after two men they were with began making flirty comments towards the three women at the end of a night out."

Women attacking women their dates flirt with isn't very noble, but it's motivated by jealousy, not racism (and probably fueled by plenty alcohol.) It wouldn't have been racism unless the women they beat up weren't white and the article doesn't say. There's no such thing as reverse racism, or reverse xenophobia, Chrisake. :facepalm:

If you are going to be an anti-racist it helps not to be a massive, hypocritical racist yourself.
 
For me, it took a 2015 pre-caucus stop in Pella by J. C. Watts, a Baptist minister raised in the small town of Eufaula, Okla., who was a Republican congressman from 1995 to 2003, to begin to understand my neighbors — and most likely other rural Americans as well.

“The difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans believe people are fundamentally bad, while Democrats see people as fundamentally good,” said Mr. Watts, who was in the area to campaign for Senator Rand Paul. “We are born bad,” he said and added that children did not need to be taught to behave badly — they are born knowing how to do that.

“We teach them how to be good,” he said. “We become good by being reborn — born again.”

He continued: “Democrats believe that we are born good, that we create God, not that he created us. If we are our own God, as the Democrats say, then we need to look at something else to blame when things go wrong — not us.”

Hearing Mr. Watts was an epiphany for me. For the first time I had a glimpse of where many of my conservative friends and neighbors were coming from. I thought, no wonder Republicans and Democrats can’t agree on things like gun control, regulations or the value of social programs. We live in different philosophical worlds, with different foundational principles.

It’s not just older people. The two young men at breakfast exemplify a younger generation with this view. When Ted Cruz campaigned in a neighboring town in 2015, I watched as a couple of dozen grade-school pupils sat at his feet, as if they were at a children’s service at church. His campaign speech was nearly a sermon, and the children listened wide-eyed when he told them the world is a scary place, and it’s godly men like him who are going to save them from the evils of President Obama, Hillary Clinton and their fellow Democrats.

While many blame poor decisions by Mrs. Clinton for her loss, in an environment like this, the Democratic candidate probably didn’t matter. And the Democratic Party may not for generations to come. The Republican brand is strong in rural America — perhaps even strong enough to withstand a disastrous Trump presidency.

Rural conservatives feel that their world is under siege, and that Democrats are an enemy to be feared and loathed. Given the philosophical premises Mr. Watts presented as the difference between Democrats and Republicans, reconciliation seems a long way off.

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/05/opinion/why-rural-america-voted-for-trump.html?_r=0
 
I think that CRI thinks that they are a lot better at bullshitting than they actually are.
 
As for J ed, he rubbished one of my posts describing intersections of race, gender, class and other forms of oppression and privilege. He pointed to Trumps pick of a Black man to head Housing & Urban Development and a white woman for Education to show there wasn't institutional racism or sexism. "It's all about class." Right, so how the hell is me observing he doesn't agree with my views on intersectional systemic oppression calling him a racist? I got pissed off with his constant needling about this so put him on mute. Then others showed up to cape for him. Fucksake.

Liar. This is what you responded to with an accusation of racism.

Would Trump's picks be OK if they were women or black? Are his choices for housing and education sound then?

which was in response to this

15317920_10153953521147064_8546134231772084727_n.jpg


0 women
0 people of color
3 men in glasses
5 Steves

From Khaled Beydoun

This is the remainder of the exchange

Point spectacularly missed. :rolleyes:

Is it? Trump's people are already calling critics of Carson's nomination racist, and why not? Clintonites have prepared the ground for the sort of politics where anything beyond arguing about representation is meaningless.
Nope. Not even close.

Most Presidents have appointed folks to their government that they at least think are well-qualified and experienced for those roles, and where there's no (obvious at least) conflict of interest. Trump's doing the opposite. Appointing Carson, an ex neurosurgeon with some whack out fundamentalist christian takes on things is perfectly consistent with Trump's approach. Not surprising he picked a Black guy for the HUD role because Trump has consistently signaled that he associates being African American with poverty and violence. Picking a woman for education is along the same lines. Neither's a top line post, both will preside over spectacular failures due to under funding and right wing bootstraps policies, so bonus points for proving that you should only give important jobs to white dudes.

Hey, but I seem to recall you don't believe institutional discrimination exists, except against white working class men, so naw, I can't be arsed to explain the thing about how being experienced and qualified and being from a minority group aren't mutually exclusive.

I wonder where I might have seen this pattern of getting caught out bullshitting before...
 
I like how 'describing intersections of race, gender, class and other forms of oppression and privilege' seems to literally mean posting misleading memes and posting links to articles on racist libertarian websites.
 
Presumably, some black people have been shot in the past eight years because they were involved in the commission of a violent crime and/or presented an imminent and legitimate threat to the life of members of the public or to police officers.

Others presumably have been shot for reasons related to racism. And those types of shootings have continued because the election of a black President didn't mean the magical disappearance of all racism from American society.
No shit. Are you related to Sybil Fawlty?
 
You know, funnily enough I think that Clinton might have something apt to say to CRI re: this sort of exchange



Full Transcript: Hillary Clinton Convo with #BlackLivesMatter Politic365 | Politic365

QUESTION: The piece that’s most important, and I stand here in your space, and I say this as respectfully as I can, but you don’t tell black people what we need to know. And we won’t tell you all what you need to do.

HILLARY CLINTON: I’m not telling you–I’m just telling you to tell me.

QUESTION: What I mean to say is– this is and has always been a white problem of violence. It’s not– there’s not much that we can do to stop the violence against us.

HILLARY CLINTON: Well if that—

Q: And it’s a conversation to push back—

HILLARY CLINTON: Okay, Okay, I understand what you’re saying—

Q: Respectfully, respectfully—

HILLARY CLINTON: Well, respectfully, if that is your position then I will talk only to white people about how we are going to deal with the very real problems—

Q: That’s not what I mean. That’s not what I mean. But like what I’m saying is what you just said was a form of victim-blaming. Right you were saying that what the Black Lives Matter movement needs to do to change white hearts—

HILLARY CLINTON: Look I don’t believe you change hearts. I believe you change laws, you change allocation of resources, you change the way systems operate. You’re not going to change every heart. You’re not. But at the end of the day, we could do a whole lot to change some hearts and change some systems and create more opportunities for people who deserve to have them, to live up to their own God-given potential, to live safely without fear of violence in their own communities, to have a decent school, to have a decent house, to have a decent future. So we can do it one of many ways. You can keep the movement going, which you have started, and through it you may actually change some hearts. But if that’s all that happens, we’ll be back here in 10 years having the same conversation. We will not have all of the changes that you deserve to see happen in your lifetime because of your willingness to get out there and talk about this.
 
Okay, what about this from October: Should The U.S. Double Down In Syria With A No-Fly Zone?

The idea, long resisted by the Obama administration, has been endorsed by Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton and by prominent Republicans, Democrats and defense experts. It would declare a portion of northern Syria and perhaps southern Syria off-limits to Syrian and Russian aircraft, and would enforce it with air-to-air fighters and long-range cruise missiles.

So, not just Clinton's idea?

A slim majority of Americans supports a no-fly zone despite the risks, reflecting their frustration that the United States seems to be doing nothing while Syrian civilians are dying in relentless Syrian and Russian attacks.

The table below comes from the study linked above. Looks like there support for no fly zones was pretty similar between Democrats and Republicans, and stronger support from Republicans than Democrats for direct military action, including ground forces.

Democrats were more likely to support a peace deal that kept Assad in power - which is surely also what the Putin government wants.

chart_survey-us-syria-actions_v2_624x672.jpg


Then there's this from David Petraus, whom Trump shortlisted for for his Secretary of State (before it went to Tillotson)
“People keep asking, ‘Is it too late?’ It’s not too late to declare a no-fly zone,” former CIA director and retired Army Gen. David Petraeus said on “Charlie Rose” last week.

“If the [Syrian] regime air force bombs folks we’re supporting or we’re concerned about, we tell them, ‘We’re going to ground your air force,’” Petraeus said. That threat would be backed up with readiness to take out Russian or Syrian aircraft and air bases with strike fighter and cruise missiles launched from outside Syrian airspace from American bombers or Navy ships, he said.

“Yes, there are risks,” Petraeus said, “and those risks have increased and gotten more complicated. But if you don’t show you are doing something to prevent them [Russians and Syrians] from carrying out a war crime … there is considerable risk in not taking action.”

Well yes, but the election was between Clinton (who called for the no fly zone) and Trump (who didn't). Also the Republicans of the McCain / Graham class (who were the ones calling for no-fly zones and also have been blaming the Russians) remain Trumps' enemies.
 
It says a lot about the entrenched racism of the USA that as anodyne a slogan as "black lives matter" can become a deeply, genuinely political slogan.

It also says a lot that people think it's an adequate slogan, and that the typical racist cop will be likely to say "gee whillikers, I never thought of it like that before - note to self, stop murdering black people for no reason".
 
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Lol

Donald Trump just announced his most ludicrous plan yet

Donald Trump has claimed Mexico will reimburse the US taxpayer for any money spent on building a border wall between the two countries, after it emerged he would approach Congress to foot the bill.

House Republicans revealed the President-elect would use public funds for the estimated $14 billion (£11 billion) project in a U-turn from the repeated pledge during his presidential campaign that he would force Mexico to fund its construction.

Mr Trump appeared to confirm reports on Friday by saying US funds would only be used "for sake of speed” and would subsequently be repaid by its neighbour country....
 
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So why are the American police still shooting black people by the dozen when there's been a black president for eight years? No-one here had been discussing class as an identity, that's the kind of nonsense that tells you Alan Sugar is working class. They've been using it to describe the relationship between people and capital. It's not an identity, it's economic fact.

Why? Racism and an over reliance/obsession with gun culture.
 
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