Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[two sheds]

Sorry but that really is cobblers. Within living memory African-americans were being lynched, homosexuality was illegal, people were imprisoned and had their lives destroyed because of their political opinions. For all Trumps racism/sexism/homophobia it is simply rubbish to claim that the US is going to be more right wing on social issues than it was in the lifetime of people sill alive.

This is precisely why calling Trump a fascist is stupid and counter productive, it just makes you divorced from reality.

When I said "And anyone who wants to take USA policy as it is now further to the right surely has to be fascistic if we use that as a better term." do you really not understand the word "now"?

You didn't seem my agreement with Tim's use of the word 'fascistic' rather than 'fascism'.

And as butchers says, are you really saying that trump shouldn't be opposed and should be left alone until it's too late?

Missing the point Andy, that point being that it's people like me and you who attack liberals who are saying trump shouldn't be opposed and should be left alone until it's too late. Fascism-enablers.

Doesn't that make you a fascist enabler?

 

[two sheds]

But you're unable to cite any fascist movements that obtained a significant government presence and then became evidently fascist, don't you think that the fact that you can't draw any parallels again indicate that fascism might not be the best way to describe this hard right populism?

But as I pointed out he's not obtained any government presence yet so we can't really tell.

And yes perhaps fascism isn't the best way to describe it, again perhaps fascistic is a better word (although as I said the dictionary definition is pretty fucking broad) and as others are saying does it really matter? We have to look at what he and his cohorts actually do and judge him on that.

 

[redsquirrel]

See above.
Yes, I get that we're all lefty hystericals and should all calm down. He isn't President yet and he hasn't done anything except appoint a few people to his cabinet. But arguing about whether he's an actual fascist or will just lock up Muslims who may be terrorists, waterboard people who look well dodge, or do any of the other hefty macho things he's talked about - well, it seems a bit like mediaeval disputations. Maybe he will be a regular politician who never fulfils any of his promises.

Well this is a bulletin board, there have been plenty of debates on whether Franco was a fascist or not, it's an interesting subject if on one level a bit academic. But there's also the more important point, that to combat Trump/UKIP/etc it's important to both understand the politics such groups and to neither overestimate or underestimate the danger they pose.

But let's take the one of the examples in your post, the Bush government ok'd waterboarding was that fascist? The New Labour UK government ok'd MI5/6 outsourcing waterboarding (and worse torture) to foreign subcontractors was that fascist? And if you want to go back further there's plenty of worse examples that we can find. Being nasty and authoritarian and racist doesn't make a government fascist.

What has he actually got to do before you would call him a fascist?

Him? As I've said repeatedly I think talking about whether Trump himself is a fascist or not isn't really useful. The more useful discussion is about the movement. I don't see anything in the Trump movement (or UKIP for that matter) that distinguishes it from a nasty racist/sexist/homophobic authoritarian movement as opposed to a fascistic one.

 

[redsquirrel]

When I said "And anyone who wants to take USA policy as it is now further to the right surely has to be fascistic if we use that as a better term." do you really not understand the word "now"?

You didn't seem my agreement with Tim's use of the word 'fascistic' rather than 'fascism'.

What? None of this makes any sense. Within living memory the US (and UK) have been far to the right (socially) compared to where they are now, so by your logic those governments must have been fascistic.

And as butchers says, are you really saying that trump shouldn't be opposed and should be left alone until it's too late?

Doesn't that make you a fascist enabler?

Oh fuck off. You're the bloke whining about people 'arguing' rather than having 'discussions' and you come out with this shit.

 

[redsquirrel]

But as I pointed out he's not obtained any government presence yet so we can't really tell.

What? That completely ignores the point I was making. Every fascist movement I can think off was identifiable as such before it obtained a significant government presence, i.e. you could tell these movements were fascist, thats the fucking point!

 

[two sheds]

What? None of this makes any sense. Within living memory the US (and UK) have been far to the right (socially) compared to where they are now, so by your logic those governments must have been fascistic.

Yes perhaps we could describe that society as fascistic, but you have to compare it against what was around at the time - within living memory we had indisputably fascist governments in Germany and Italy.

Since then the politics in europe and the US have moved away from fascism, so taking it back towards those attitudes could reasonably be called fascistic.

Oh fuck off. You're the bloke whining about people 'arguing' rather than having 'discussions' and you come out with this shit.

lol yes, it was butchers having a pop at me but his statement actually being more suited to criticizing your position that appealed. I wouldn't say his views were exactly 'shit' though

As others have said, though, what does it actually matter whether we call it fascist or not? What difference does it make to how we deal with it?

 

[mojo pixy]

 

[two sheds]

What? That completely ignores the point I was making. Every fascist movement I can think off was identifiable as such before it obtained a significant government presence, i.e. you could tell these movements were fascist, thats the fucking point!

You've slightly moved the goalposts. Before you said "OK, so which previous fascist movements were not evidently fascist *by the time* they had a significant presence in government? I said Trump hasn't got a significant presence in government yet.

And again it depends what you want to define as fascist. The dictionary definition I gave above:

[mass noun] An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.1.1 (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices:
‘this is yet another example of health fascism in action’

If Trump and his appointed people (who look highly dodgy but who've had no effect on government yet because they weren't appointed) move the US further to the right, more authoritarian and more intolerant then those are surely fascistic moves.

 

[DotCommunist]

What difference does it make to how we deal with it?

it means the enemy doesn't get lined up into an innacurrate box that their ideolouges can argue out of without breaking sweat. It means we identify what current strands are for and about without resorting to lazy cricature. It means applying some intellectual rigor rather than thinking that behind us is a fit for whats in front of us. Essentially, know your enemy. And the cheeto benito might be laughingly mocked as fash that he isn't but mockery (while valid) only gets you so far. You have to dig further. You must know that his cohorts carry views of the fash kind but they are not explicitly so. Except his nazi m8s

 

[J Ed]

Garbage In, Garbage Out | Jacobin

 

[Lord Camomile]

Trump suggesting Pence should be afforded a "safe space"? If I credited the man with any self awareness I'd have to give it to him for his on point troll work.

 

[mojo pixy]

The theater must always be a safe and special place.

 

[J Ed]

Trump suggesting Pence should be afforded a "safe space"? If I credited the man with any self awareness I'd have to give it to him for his on point troll work.

Pence being booed by the bourgeoisie and scolded by rich actors is great publicity for Trump.

Hamilton is $800-1200 per ticket.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Pence being booed by the bourgeoisie and scolded by rich actors is great publicity for Trump.

Hamilton is $800-1200 per ticket.

The fuck...?!

Are those box offices prices or tout prices?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Trump suggesting Pence should be afforded a "safe space"? If I credited the man with any self awareness I'd have to give it to him for his on point troll work.

He himself has been very 'rude', repeatedly to lots of people lately yet no apology has happened. Nope,rudeness is a privilege and only certain people are allowed to be offended.

Seriously, the obvious double standards and could not give two fucks attitude isn't something any of us will benefit from.

 

[CRI]

Pence being booed by the bourgeoisie and scolded by rich actors is great publicity for Trump.

Hamilton is $800-1200 per ticket.

You really fucking don't get it do you?

 

[CRI]

 

[CRI]

Trump poised to violate Constitution his first day in office, George W. Bush’s ethics lawyer says
The Constitution doesn’t allow presidents to seek gifts from foreign agents.

Friday evening, the Washington Post reported that about 100 foreign diplomats gathered at President-elect Donald Trump’s hotel in Washington, DC to “to sip Trump-branded champagne, dine on sliders and hear a sales pitch about the U.S. president-elect’s newest hotel.” The tour included a look at the hotel’s $20,000 a night “town house” suite. The Post also quoted some of the diplomats saying they intended to stay at the hotel in order to ingratiate themselves to the incoming president.

“Why wouldn’t I stay at his hotel blocks from the White House, so I can tell the new president, ‘I love your new hotel!’” said one diplomat from an Asian nation. “Isn’t it rude to come to his city and say, ‘I am staying at your competitor?’”

The incoming president, in other words, is actively soliciting business from agents of foreign governments. Many of these agents, in turn, said that they will accept the president-elect’s offer to do business because they want to win favor with the new leader of the United States.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What? That completely ignores the point I was making. Every fascist movement I can think off was identifiable as such before it obtained a significant government presence, i.e. you could tell these movements were fascist, thats the fucking point!

So what? Trump's 'movement' has been evolving very quickly as he has been going along. One of the important points of difference between Trump and past fascist movements is the absence of a coherent movement. Rather than build his own 'third way' party, he's essentially hijacked an existing party.

But again, so what? Every time stuff happens, it happens differently from the way it happened before. Still doesn't invalidate the comparisons where they are there. And in Trump's case, they are there. There are many points of comparison between Trump and fascism, and no, I don't agree with you that you can say the same thing about most governments around the world. I don't think that's true at all, and it smacks of denial. As a for instance, nasty cunt as the pigfucker was, he wasn't a fascist, not in any sense. His nastiness came from a very different place.

 

[CRI]

Pence being booed by the bourgeoisie and scolded by rich actors is great publicity for Trump.

Hamilton is $800-1200 per ticket.

 

[Yossarian]

The fuck...?!

Are those box offices prices or tout prices?

Tout prices, think the cheapest seats start around $180 - very pricey, but comparable with a lot of higher-profile concerts. I'd be tempted to pay it if there was a guarantee Mike Pence was going to get told off every time.

Not that the cast was anything but polite to Pence: "We, sir, we are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, sir. But we truly hope this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and work on behalf of all of us. All of us. Again, we truly thank you truly for seeing this show, this wonderful American story told by a diverse group of men and women of different colors, creeds and orientations."

If he can't handle hearing something like that, maybe he should stay away from Broadway and stick to events like meetings of the Indiana Homophobes Society.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It was the audience that booed him, not the cast of the play. Chump is holding the cast responsible for them asking him to be a decent person, how fucking dare they!

 

[J Ed]

View attachment 95846

What does that have to do with anything I wrote

 

[J Ed]

The fuck...?!

Are those box offices prices or tout prices?

Box office

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

INDIANAPOLIS (The Borowitz Report)—In a history-making decision, Gov. Mike Pence of Indiana has signed into law a bill that officially recognizes stupidity as a religion.

Pence said that he hoped the law would protect millions of state residents “who, like me, have been practicing this religion passionately for years.”

The bill would grant politicians like Pence the right to observe their faith freely, even if their practice of stupidity costs the state billions of dollars.

While Pence’s action drew the praise of stupid people across America, former Arizona Governor Jan Brewer was not among them. “Even I wasn’t dumb enough to sign a bill like that,” she said.

Indiana Defines Stupidity as Religion - The New Yorker

 

[J Ed]

oh god borowitz

 

[Tankus]

Fuck me ..he's paid $25m to drop the trump university scam litigation......

Money talks and walks it seems

I was sort of hopeing the the media zoo aound it would cause him problems before the inauguration.....

So the peadophile rape allegations have been dropped and now this ...

 

[Yossarian]

Now Newt Gingrich is getting in on the act, probably just tetchy because Trump hasn't offered him a real job.

 

[J Ed]

Now Newt Gingrich is getting in on the act, probably just tetchy because Trump hasn't offered him a real job.

I think he just realises how good the people at a $800-1200 a ticket play booing Pence looks for the Trump people. 'They treat him with the same contempt that they treat you'.

 

[Libertad]

"Safe space" lol