Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[redsquirrel]

I am far from convinced that Trump's faction, whatever that is I am sure that even Trump has no idea, isn't fascist. Bannon ran a Breitbart section called 'black crime', he said that he didn't want his kids to go to school with Jewish kids. Go and look through the archives on his website, I think that if we say that the sort of stuff he is promoting isn't fascism then nothing is fascism. I know the defence, he has Jewish people and black people who defend him. This is the logical conclusion of Clintonite identity politics, get a person from X group to legitimise whatever indefensible position and you are fine.

Deeply racist of course and possibly Bannon might be a fascist himself, but that no more makes the Trump faction of the Republican party fascist than Griffins fascism made the BNP a fascist party. I think this is a case where talking about individuals is useless (and I know I've done it myself previously on this thread), it's better to look at the party/movement.

The Trump faction is pretty obviously racist, sexist, homophobic, deeply authoritarian etc but I don't see it as fascist. It is not revolutionary in ideology, but rather conservative - "Make America Great Again". Yes fascist regimes/movements often harked back to some former greatness but the future they wished to build was new, radical, a transformed society - driving your Volkswagan from Germany into the Russian steepe along the autobahn. Trump, UKIP, the BNP (when they were riding high), and most of these groups have no such similar vision for the future. Rather their ideology is closer to a more stupid, racist version of Major's 'traditional England', a wish to turn the clock back. There are other important elements missing too, the lack of a strong street fighting presence for example (yes I know there are armed Trump nutters but they aren't an organised force).

 

[redsquirrel]

double post

 

[little_legs]

Like an emergence of shirts?

 

[Kaka Tim]

Trump's cabinet looks about as far right as it could possibly be from the available pool of ...er ... talent. They seriously look like they mean business on everything from rounding up immigrants, overturning roe-wade, declaring Muslims the enemy within and even going to war with iran. Oh - and giving a green light to an anti-civil rights, gay rights, womens rights backlash.
Undoubtedly this will be met with widespread protests - and this administration will likely reach for the tear gas, baton rounds and curfews - and worse - at the slightest provocation.
Dark times ahead in the USA.

 

[Dogsauce]

I'm wondering if it's Bannon pulling the strings, since most of the picks could almost be seen to have been made to wind-up 'liberal' America. It's like the Alt-right M.O, to be deliberately confrontational and attention-seeking*.

I doubt Trump came at it with an idea of who he wanted for certain jobs (some have reported that he didn't even know he had to pick a team), someone is picking out people for him. John Bolton ffs.



*sometimes this is done because the hysterical reaction of their opponents makes the right look like the sane, reasonable people, which is fine for gaining high ground on the childishly partisan internet, but shouldn't be how a government is put together.

 

[teqniq]

Heh.

Donald Trump agrees to $25 million Trump University settlement

..Lawyers for Donald Trump say a $25 million settlement resolving lawsuits over Trump University will allow the president-elect to devote his full attention to the challenges facing the nation.

The lawyers said they have no doubt Trump University would have won the cases if they had gone to trial...

Really. Surely $25 million is not a snip even to someone like Trump, sounds more like a make it go away payment to me.

 

[teqniq]

 

[DaveCinzano]

Reading J Ed's posts and hearing them in the voice of Bjørge Lillelien

 

[JuanTwoThree]

The Trump faction is pretty obviously racist, sexist, homophobic, deeply authoritarian etc but I don't see it as fascist. It is not revolutionary in ideology, but rather conservative -

I see some parallels with the Poujadist movement in France in the 50s. Anti-Semitism, anti-intellectualism, anti-elite and so on. Obviously the similarities can't be teased out too much:
Obituary: Pierre Poujade

 

[two sheds]

We should give him time to see whether he's fascist or not, he's not even president yet.

I also think it likely that, when things start going wrong, it's going to be blamed on the liberals stopping him from doing what he needs to do with a swing further to the right

 

[butchersapron]

Yay, you got there. Well done on keeping it in so long.

 

[two sheds]

another totally clear butchers comment

mentioning liberals you mean? You disagree?

 

[butchersapron]

Post war social contract I expect.

 

[two sheds]

You disagree that Trump's going to blame it on the liberals when things start going wrong? Commies too undoubtedly.

And yes I do indeed think we should have full employment, a properly funded NHS, free education, a programme of building council houses and rent caps, social security and unemployment benefits and public ownership of essential industries. I think that would be a good starting point to see what needs doing next. How would you approach it?

Funny intit I make a direct criticism of you having a go at someone and you call me passive aggressive. Your next veiled comments at me are one of your stock in trade: .... passive aggressive

 

[redsquirrel]

We should give him time to see whether he's fascist or not, he's not even president yet.

Is the latter a requirement for the former?

 

[Anju]

This is worth a read, though may anger some due to excessive display of liberal sensibilities.

LRB · R.W. Johnson · Trump: Some Numbers

 

[butchersapron]

He has a delightful book out abut his time at Oxford as well.

 

[J Ed]

Steve Bannon Says He Is an ‘Economic Nationalist’ Not ‘White Nationalist’

“The conservatives are going to go crazy. I’m the guy pushing a trillion-dollar infrastructure plan. With negative interest rates throughout the world, it’s the greatest opportunity to rebuild everything. Ship yards, iron works, get them all jacked up. We’re just going to throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. It will be as exciting as the 1930s, greater than the Reagan revolution — conservatives, plus populists, in an economic nationalist movement.”

What does 'conservatives, plus populists' in the context of the 1930s mean exactly? Other than, well, you know..

 

[J Ed]

In an American context it does not really sound at all like he is describing FDR or even someone like Charles Coughlin, and he doesn't specify that he is talking about the US anyway. I think he is talking about European fascism.

 

[two sheds]

Is the latter a requirement for the former?

no but it'll become more evident as we see what he does

 

[andysays]

We should give him time to see whether he's fascist or not, he's not even president yet...

I think the idea that Trump is actually "fascist" in any meaningful way is pretty ridiculous, but if you're seriously suggesting that he might be, how much time would you advise giving him before deciding, or what actions would you need him to take to demonstrate that he was?

And as a follow up, what would your suggested response be once he had demonstrated his fascism?

 

[butchersapron]

Missing the point Andy, that point being that it's people like me and you who attack liberals who are saying trump shouldn't be opposed and should be left alone until it's too late. Fascism-enablers.

Her spirit lives on.

 

[two sheds]

Missing the point Andy, that point being that it's people like me and you who attack liberals who are saying trump shouldn't be opposed and should be left alone until it's too late. Her spirit lives on.

Passive aggressive again eh, don't respond to direct points or questions, just snipe from the sidelines.

And where did I say that? You're making stuff up again. Or are you criticizing redsquirrel who says he's not a fascist?

 

[andysays]

Missing the point Andy, that point being that it's people like me and you who attack liberals who are saying trump shouldn't be opposed and should be left alone until it's too late.

I'm confused now.

I thought I (and you too, TBH) was saying he, like all leaders, should be attacked and opposed for what he actually is and what he is actually likely to do rather than on the basis that he is or might be a fascist/proto-communist bogie man, but maybe I've got that wrong.

I'm sure someone will post yet another incisive article from a well-educated member of the liberal commentariat to explain it all in a way that even thickoes like you and me can understand.

ETA

Her spirit lives on.

This bit genuinely has confused me. Whose spirit are you referring to here?

 

[two sheds]

I think the idea that Trump is actually "fascist" in any meaningful way is pretty ridiculous, but if you're seriously suggesting that he might be, how much time would you advise giving him before deciding, or what actions would you need him to take to demonstrate that he was?

Well Raymond Williams' Keywords - pretty well my bible for these sorts of things dontchaknow - doesn't seem to give Fascism under 'F' and the definition's pretty wide given Oxford on-line.

1[mass noun] An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

1.1 (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices:
‘this is yet another example of health fascism in action’

But on top of that if he brings in policies that suppress counter views, allows increasing violence against minorities, closes down people who oppose him then wouldn't that be fascist? Difficult to distinguish from present government of course, but alternatively how would you define fascism?

And as a follow up, what would your suggested response be once he had demonstrated his fascism?

Support the people he's attacking however I can? Try to dissuade people I come across from supporting similar actions over here? Dunno, happy to hear of suggestions.

 

[two sheds]

I'm confused now.

I thought I (and you too, TBH) was saying he, like all leaders, should be attacked and opposed for what he actually is and what he is actually likely to do rather than on the basis that he is or might be a fascist/proto-communist bogie man, but maybe I've got that wrong.

That sounds a good position to me.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Trump and his fellow gangmembers are certainly"fascistic" - ultra nationalist, romantic, bullying, populist, xenophobic/racist, militaristic, contemptuous of the basic tenants of democratic liberalism and happy to wink at political violence and intimidation carried out by their own side.
They are constrained by the US constitution from full blown autocracy - but im sure they'll do their best.

 

[Idris2002]

Which is more important? Position, or direction? Where people are, or where they're headed?

 

[Maltin]

Steve Bannon Says He Is an ‘Economic Nationalist’ Not ‘White Nationalist’

“The conservatives are going to go crazy. I’m the guy pushing a trillion-dollar infrastructure plan. With negative interest rates throughout the world, it’s the greatest opportunity to rebuild everything. Ship yards, iron works, get them all jacked up. We’re just going to throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. It will be as exciting as the 1930s, greater than the Reagan revolution — conservatives, plus populists, in an economic nationalist movement.”

What does 'conservatives, plus populists' in the context of the 1930s mean exactly? Other than, well, you know..

At least the American highways will be improved and the trains will run on time.

 

[two sheds]

Perhaps riding the wave of popular support he'll nationalize the banks and insurance companies to generate the billions needed to give free health care and education and affordable housing and secure jobs to all and start to make America Great again.