Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

Status
Not open for further replies.
There are underlying conditions and then there is the political system/party traditions/recent history and a host of other factors. Part of the answer about why Trump has less support from black voters, women and others is ... Trump. Trump's right wing, racist populism takes a particular form that means it's going to be very difficult - to say the least - for black voters and women to vote for him. That's also, in passing, why he will lose. But the 'possibility of Trump', has it's origins in real events and histories. As does brexit.

The discontent and economic dislocation you speak about are very real; and imo they help to explain why so many US voters have remained 'undecided' for so long. There is a siren call in Trump's anti-establishment persona. But it may be that as the days go by, and as more and more is revealed about exactly who and what Trump is,those undecideds are realizing that the harm he will do to the Republic, doesn't justify voting for the anti establishment candidate in order to shake up the system.
 
The key foreign policy vote in modern American history was the 2002 vote as to whether we should go into Iraq. I made the decision not to go to war. Hillary Clinton on the other hand, voted for the war...

Like many simplistic and “sound bite” arguments of the modern era, and of Sanders in particular, the argument that Hillary Clinton supported the war George W. Bush prosecuted in Iraq is nonsense.

Myth #1: The 2002 Congressional Resolution authorizing the use of military force against Iraq, on which Hillary Clinton and a large majority of U.S. Senators voted yes, gave George W. Bush “carte blanche” to pursue war against Saddam Hussein.

False! In fact exactly the opposite is true: While that Resolution did indeed authorize President Bush, under strict requirements of the 1973 War Powers Act, to use force, Section 3(b) of the Act also required that sanctions or diplomacy be fully employed before force was used, i.e. force was to be used only as “necessary and appropriate in order to defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq,” and to do so only upon the President certifying to Congress that “diplomatic or other peaceful means” would be insufficient to defang Saddam.

Despite those legal conditions, the following year we were at war—and millions of us were astonished that the Bush Administration, running roughshod over Congress’s requirements, hadn’t given more time for U.N. inspectors to complete their job of searching for weapons of mass destruction.
 
Myth #2: By voting for the 2002 Congressional Resolution which authorized (but was also designed to limit) George Bush’s power to wage war in Iraq, Hillary Clinton cannot be considered a “progressive” Democrat.


False! On October 11, 2002, Clinton joined a strong majority of Democrats, including liberal and left-center Democrats like Tom Harkin, John Kerry, and Joe Biden, in voting in favor of the Resolution authorizing the use of military force against Iraq. Later on, Clinton came to deeply regret giving President Bush the benefit of the doubt on the Resolution, and she has plainly admitted her mistake. Yet it is a “mistake” which many other senators of conscience made with her; if Clinton bears any blame for the resulting war, it is because she placed too much reliance on legislation that was actually designed to check a president’s war-making ability but instead inadvertently gave that president cover to run roughshod over the interests of both Congress and the public at large.
 
Myth #3: At the time of her vote, Clinton was very supportive of going to war in order to remove Saddam Hussein from power.

False! While Clinton quickly turned against the war, another piece of “lost history” is the deep concern she expressed at the very time of her vote in the fall of 2002. Given the Resolution’s several prerequisites to waging war, Clinton’s vote was for a Resolution that was also supposed to restrain the President’s ability to wage war, and her 2002 floor speech leading up to consideration of the Resolution made this clear:

My vote is not a vote for any new doctrine of preemption or for unilateralism or for the arrogance of American power or purpose, all of which carry grave dangers for our Nation, the rule of international law, and the peace and security of people throughout the world.

These words presaged the doctrine of “smart power” Clinton later espoused as Secretary of State. Her vision is neither interventionist on the one hand nor hesitant and supine on the other, but rather something in between: a belief that the United States is the indispensable leader—in a troubled world where such leadership matters—but a belief still grounded in reality, the limits of American power and, perhaps most significantly, the importance of collaboration with like-minded actors who can be found in every corner of the globe. Meanwhile, as Clinton has said many times, then as now, armed intervention is only to be used as a last resort.
 
Myth #4: At the time of the 2002 vote, the “architecture” of George Bush’s Presidency was well understood, including a philosophy and history of carrying out pre-emptive wars.


False! In 2002, Clinton palpably feared a precipitous rush to war, but was willing to trust a leader who at the time was only in the second year of his presidency, having just suffered the most calamitous attack on the homeland since Pearl Harbor—and, notably, whose only international venture up until then was a widely applauded campaign to overthrow the Taliban in Al Qaida’s sanctuary of Afghanistan. While it was already well known that Bush had neocon advisers like Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz, the true extent of their influence had not yet been manifested. (Colin Powell was also an important adviser and George W. was, after all, George H.W. Bush’s son.)
 
Myth #5. Hillary Clinton’s vote belies support for an “Imperial Presidency” that brooks no dissent, and disrespects Congress and other partners, foreign or domestic.


False! To the contrary, one of the reasons Hillary Clinton is so well qualified to be president is because she deeply respects the rule of law and, in particular, appropriate Congressional prerogatives and the Constitutional principle of checks and balances. (Indeed, this is precisely why she voted the way she did on the 2002 Iraq Resolution.) In this vein, she is also uniquely capable of reaching across the aisle to forge common-sense solutions, a “progressive who delivers results,” as she says.

5 Myths (And One Big Truth) About Hillary's 2002 Iraq War Vote | Huffington Post
 
The discontent and economic dislocation you speak about are very real; and imo they help to explain why so many US voters have remained 'undecided' for so long. There is a siren call in Trump's anti-establishment persona. But it may be that as the days go by, and as more and more is revealed about exactly who and what Trump is,those undecideds are realizing that the harm he will do to the Republic, doesn't justify voting for the anti establishment candidate in order to shake up the system.
Can't remember whether it was this thread or not, but I was on about that yesterday or so (in the sense that I thought it might happen over brexit, but didn't). Have a feeling it might well happen to Trump, given that even by his own standards this last week has been bonkers - and things are likely to get worse (further republicans abandoning him, perhaps the 'N word tapes' come out). Same time, even those who are frightened back into voting for Clinton will be doing it without much enthusiasm.
 
The bloody collapse of Libya – which triggered a refugee crisis and aided the rise of Isis – is blamed today on David Cameron’s blunders when he intervened to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi.

A damning report by MPs condemns the 2011 military campaign for lacking both “accurate intelligence” and a coherent strategy for the aftermath of removing the dictator.

The disastrous results were “political and economic collapse”, tribal warfare, the refugee crisis, widespread human rights abuses and the rise of Islamic State (IS) in North Africa, fuelled by weapons abandoned by the Gaddafi regime.

David Cameron blamed for rise of Isis in damning report
 
The discontent and economic dislocation you speak about are very real; and imo they help to explain why so many US voters have remained 'undecided' for so long. There is a siren call in Trump's anti-establishment persona. But it may be that as the days go by, and as more and more is revealed about exactly who and what Trump is,those undecideds are realizing that the harm he will do to the Republic, doesn't justify voting for the anti establishment candidate in order to shake up the system.

Yep. I have this nutty old aunty in Florida: Months ago she said she would never vote for Crooked Hilary and thought Trump (whilst a bit unpalatable) was was at least 'straight talking', not a liar like Hilary, and not part of the establishment.
I really don't think she'll be able to stomach voting Trump now but expect she'll just stay home instead of voting against him. Will call her and ask, a poll of one.
 
Johnny Canuck3 You're no fun. Myths are what we need now, more than ever, great heroic myths a simple story and some rousing rock music.:mad:

They aren't myths. He's posted a steaming pile of dung from a Clinton acolyte defending the indefensible . Using layer speak..he's a lawyer..to evade responsibility.

The clintons themselves were repeatedly bombing Iraq right up until they left the white house. Her extremely belated decision to at long last decide to call her decision " a mistake " just..coincidentally ..happened some years after she was repeatedly hammered by Obama on the issue and lost the Dem nomination to him. And ...coincidentally..just before she announced she was trying for it again. Despite making the same " mistake " in Libya . And now announcing her intent to make the same " mistake " again in Syria .
Her deep remorse for her mistake only came around after it became thoroughly obvious to her it was a sure fire election loser . After she lost an election over it, and just before she was trying to get elected again .

He's full of shit and so is she .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom