Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[Yuwipi Woman]

I decided to turn the news on at 9 pm. I was astonished to see nearly every channel fawning over Trump. I suppose it makes some sense. ABC is owned by Disney and they contributed to his campaign. CBS is owned by Paramount. NBC is owned by Comcast. We need to develop deeper information sources that are resilient to being taken over by the far right.

I also listened to a bit of Trump's speech. How can the Democrats just sit there and smile?

 

[Lord Camomile]

I didn't realise that I was required to hold the same views as other people - or to change them just to "fit in".

You and others may not agree with my views but you can't prevent me from holding them or voicing them.

Are you quoting a Trump supporter there, or...?

 

[story]

I don’t see any views though Rompipalle . I see rhetoric.

Where is the evidence that they are thick?

 

[Rompipalle]

ah the cut and thrust of reasoned debate on urban

Like you would know about that, eh?

No wonder so many people have you on ignore - you utter clownshoe.

 

[Rompipalle]

I don’t see any views though Rompipalle . I see rhetoric.

Where is the evidence that they are thick?

There's no evidence that they're not. Just look at what they elected.

Look, we're not ever going to agree on this, so let's just not bother to bat it back and forward.

 

[Rompipalle]

Are you quoting a Trump supporter there, or...?

Well, no... but if their views are seemed to be valid, it stands to reason that mine must be too.

 

[Petcha]

I decided to turn the news on at 9 pm. I was astonished to see nearly every channel fawning over Trump. I suppose it makes some sense. ABC is owned by Disney and they contributed to his campaign. CBS is owned by Paramount. NBC is owned by Comcast. We need to develop deeper information sources that are resilient to being taken over by the far right.

I also listened to a bit of Trump's speech. How can the Democrats just sit there and smile?

I was thinking the same. I guess Biden and Harris had to appear to be the bigger people rather than boycott it like Trump did. The tabloid press is saying the reason Michelle Obama was absent was down to marital issues, not the fact that the worst person on planet earth has just become the most powerful one.

 

[a_chap]

I decided to turn the news on at 9 pm. I was astonished to see nearly every channel fawning over Trump. I suppose it makes some sense. ABC is owned by Disney and they contributed to his campaign. CBS is owned by Paramount. NBC is owned by Comcast. We need to develop deeper information sources that are resilient to being taken over by the far right.

May I suggest a web site called Urban75?

 

[lazythursday]

Well, no... but if their views are seemed to be valid, it stands to reason that mine must be too.

It's not that their views are 'valid' - it's that something must be driving those views, there are deeper explanations than 'they are thick'.

And so I suppose also something must be driving your view, which on the face of it is obstinately two dimensional and lacking substance, easy to label 'thick'. Without knowing more about you and your circumstances it's difficult to unpack that.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Well, no... but if their views are seemed to be valid, it stands to reason that mine must be too.

I never said your views aren't valid.

I think possibly my point wasn't clear enough (I deleted a bunch of extra because I'm trying to be more concise... ).

Essentially, you want Trump voters to change their views. You understand that from your perspective, for you to change your views, you would need to be presented with whatever it is feels like the 'right reasons' to you.

So, if that's true for you, does it not stand to reason that it is likely true of those who voted for Trump, too? There are, of course, lots of reasons not to vote for Trump. If we understand why people voted for Trump in the first place, we can likely figure out which will be the 'right reasons' to convince them not to do it again. Which, I have to assume, we agree would be a good thing, broadly speaking?

 

[Pickman's model]

Like you would know about that, eh?

No wonder so many people have you on ignore - you utter clownshoe.

is there a point struggling to get out there? you couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper bag as you've shown time and again here. just like the people who've put me on ignore out of pique, when shown up for the empty vessels they are.

 

[Wilf]

ah the cut and thrust of reasoned debate on urban

 

[Rompipalle]

It's not that their views are 'valid' - it's that something must be driving those views, there are deeper explanations than 'they are thick'.

And so I suppose also something must be driving your view, which on the face of it is obstinately two dimensional and lacking substance, easy to label 'thick'. Without knowing more about you and your circumstances it's difficult to unpack that.

I don't know what's driving their views and I'm sure that if I even speculated on that, there would be the usual suspects on here, coming down on me like a ton of bricks and falling over themselves to tell me that I am wrong, so I won't even bother to try. If I thought it were not so, I might try but even in the brief period of time I've been here, I've seen how certain people on this forum operate and i'm not willing to leave myself as a target for them. I've been willing to exchange views with people who can be civil but not those who are just always on the attack.

It's not for me to want Trump voters to change their views but if they can't see him for the vile liar and con merchant he so clearly is, then I see no way that they will change their views - even when presented with the evidence of his various crimes. They apparently just don't care.

That said, they now see that even committing these sorts of crimes has had no adverse consequences for him so perhaps they think this gives them all carte blanche to hold and promulgate the same views - and assume that there will be no adverse consequences for them either. Trump has effectively told his supporters that they can behave exactly as they please - and victimise any group of people they wish to - on his watch and there will pretty much be no consequences for them because he hold and endorses the same world view.

 

[Rompipalle]

I never said your views aren't valid.

I think possibly my point wasn't clear enough (I deleted a bunch of extra because I'm trying to be more concise... ).

Essentially, you want Trump voters to change their views. You understand that from your perspective, for you to change your views, you would need to be presented with whatever it is feels like the 'right reasons' to you.

So, if that's true for you, does it not stand to reason that it is likely true of those who voted for Trump, too? There are, of course, lots of reasons not to vote for Trump. If we understand why people voted for Trump in the first place, we can likely figure out which will be the 'right reasons' to convince them not to do it again. Which, I have to assume, we agree would be a good thing, broadly speaking?

I refer you to my post to lazythursday.

 

[LDC]

I don't know what's driving their views and I'm sure that if I even speculated on that, ... so I won't even bother to try.

So... you say you have no idea why people might have voted for Trump, and you're not going to try and speculate. Maybe you could try and read something that does try and analyse why?

Otherwise all you are saying is, "I don't know, and I won't read anything or listen to anyone, I just think they're thick". Which doesn't really belong in this politics forum as any kind of position worth engaging with.

 

[story]

I don't know what's driving their views and I'm sure that if I even speculated on that, there would be the usual suspects on here, coming down on me like a ton of bricks and falling over themselves to tell me that I am wrong, so I won't even bother to try. If I thought it were not so, I might try but even in the brief period of time I've been here, I've seen how certain people on this forum operate and i'm not willing to leave myself as a target for them. I've been willing to exchange views with people who can be civil but not those who are just always on the attack.

It's not for me to want Trump voters to change their views but if they can't see him for the vile liar and con merchant he so clearly is, then I see no way that they will change their views - even when presented with the evidence of his various crimes. They apparently just don't care.

That said, they now see that even committing these sorts of crimes has had no adverse consequences for him so perhaps they think this gives them all carte blanche to hold and promulgate the same views - and assume that there will be no adverse consequences for them either. Trump has effectively told his supporters that they can behave exactly as they please - and victimise any group of people they wish to - on his watch and there will pretty much be no consequences for them because he hold and endorses the same world view.

Your last sentence suggests why his supporters support him.

They’re not stupid. They’ve voted for the guy who agrees with them and who enables them.

Whether it’s stupid to hold RW is another aspect of the conversation.



Believe it or not, this place is far less full-on than it used to be. You may find some posters to be harsh (and I don’t dispute your own experience) but it’s a walk in the park compared to the bear pit it once was,


For me, the reason I have lost patience with your posting is because you don’t explain why you hold a view, you just state it and when you’re pushed for detail or supporting evidence, or when someone disagrees with you in strong terms, you retreat to “yeah, well, that’s my view and if you don’t like it… I’m not even going to speculate… ” and the whole thing descends again, like it’s doing right now.

And then it goes round again.

This is why the other thread got started. Be proud! You’ve helped to drive development into new territory!

 

[Wilf]

I don't know what's driving their views and I'm sure that if I even speculated on that, there would be the usual suspects on here, coming down on me like a ton of bricks and falling over themselves to tell me that I am wrong, so I won't even bother to try. If I thought it were not so, I might try but even in the brief period of time I've been here, I've seen how certain people on this forum operate and i'm not willing to leave myself as a target for them. I've been willing to exchange views with people who can be civil but not those who are just always on the attack.

Well, Urban can be a bit spikey at times and beefs do tend to linger, so yes, maybe. But no, I'm not convinced. There have been plenty of articles and opinion pieces on the rise of populism and the reasons voters and even whole communities have for voting Trump /abandoning the Dems and the old liberal order. Added to that, lots of posters have given their own perspectives from a variety of left positions. There's a lot on this thread and others to engage with and no, I don't think people would come down on you like a ton of bricks if you engaged with it. A point I'd make to several other posters so this isn't personalised to you.

Might add, for what it's worth, I have a tendency to throw in one liners on Urban across a whole range of topics, I'm not exactly a model of serious scholarly engagement (lol). There's scope for all kinds of contributions, but there does need to be something more than saying 'fuck those thick people'.

It's not for me to want Trump voters to change their views but if they can't see him for the vile liar and con merchant he so clearly is, then I see no way that they will change their views - even when presented with the evidence of his various crimes. They apparently just don't care.

I don't think I can do much to influence Trump voters from this side of the pond. However the battle against Trump is pretty much the same battle as against the far right in Europe, against neo-liberalism, against the fucking billionaires and all those other common enemies. It might be a low point at the moment in terms of struggle, a point of maximum depression for that matter, but there are things we can do. Ways of fighting back.

 

[story]

I’m imagining someone on Newsnightor Ch 4 News or The World Tonight or HARDTalk offering a similar level of discussion….

-Senator, what, in your view, is driving the current increase in populism we’re seeing across various different nations, some of which have direct experience of fighting fascism?
-Well the voters are just stupid.
-Can you expand on that a bit? Are you saying that education is failing, or that history has a habit of repeating for those too young to have witnessed it?
-Stop pressing me! I’ve told you what I think!

 

[story]

Well, Urban can be a bit spikey at times and beefs do tend to linger, so yes, maybe. But no, I'm not convinced. There have been plenty of articles and opinion pieces on the rise of populism and the reasons voters and even whole communities have for voting Trump /abandoning the Dems and the old liberal order. Added to that, lots of posters have given their own perspectives from a variety of left positions. There's a lot on this thread and others to engage with and no, I don't think people would come down on you like a ton of bricks if you engaged with it. A point I'd make to several other posters so this isn't personalised to you.

Might add, for what it's worth, I have a tendency to throw in one liners on Urban across a whole range of topics, I'm not exactly a model of serious scholarly engagement (lol). There's scope for all kinds of contributions, but there does need to something more than saying 'fuck those thick people'.


I don't think I can do much to influence Trump voters from this side of the pond. However the battle against Trump is pretty much the same battle as against the far right in Europe, against neo-liberalism, against the fucking billionaires and all those other common enemies. It might be a low point at the moment in terms of struggle, a point of maximum depression for that matter, but there are things we can do. Ways of fighting back.

We also have thoughtful posters across the divide, who offer reasoned arguments. I often feel infuriated by them, but at least I can see why they hold their views, I understand their argument. And sometimes it’s food for thought.


I’m definitely not a regular poster in P&P but I’ve read and followed countless threads over the years and I’m much better informed, more thoughtful and more careful as a result.

 

[Lord Camomile]

It's not for me to want Trump voters to change their views

You don't have to, sure. But it's kinda like me never brushing my teeth and just hoping they won't decay any further. And I gotta tell you, the outlook is not looking good so far

I guess slightly ironically, I just don't quite understand your perspective of not wanting Trump voters to change their views, given how invested you seem to be (as most of us here are!) in the outcomes of those votes.

Because aside from anything else, the 'Right' (as much as it is one thing) is working on making more voters. So it's going to be more and more likely things'll get worse and worse.

I see no way that they will change their views - even when presented with the evidence of his various crimes. They apparently just don't care.

It's interesting, because I feel like this is on the mark but also misses it.

You're right, apparently they don't care, or care enough, at least. Maybe they would, if it was presented in a way they connected with (a lot of us have changed our views on something we already knew about, or given it more importance than we previously did).

Either way, though, you're still thinking about something that has convinced you (again, you're certainly not alone there). As you say, it clearly hasn't convinced those who voted for Trump. So what might? They are in different situations, with different outlooks, influences and pressures to all of us. So it'll like need something different (or, at least, something presented differently) to convince them to stop supporting him.

Not saying this is necessarily the case for you, but I do get how it can feel easier to just consign everyone to say "there's nothing that can be done". It's quick, and it means I don't have to do anything, which would be scary, because I don't know how, and it'd probably be aggressive, and a lot (a lot) of work. I do often give up.

But, then... the fuck else are we gonna do?

 

[Dystopiary]

We also have thoughtful posters across the divide, who offer reasoned arguments. I often feel infuriated by them, but at least I can see why they hold their views, I understand their argument. And sometimes it’s food for thought.


I’m definitely not a regular poster in P&P but I’ve read and followed countless threads over the years and I’m much better informed, more thoughtful and more careful as a result.

I've learnt LOADS just in the four years I've been here!

 

[Rompipalle]

Your last sentence suggests why his supporters support him.

They’re not stupid. They’ve voted for the guy who agrees with them and who enables them.

Whether it’s stupid to hold RW is another aspect of the conversation.



Believe it or not, this place is far less full-on than it used to be. You may find some posters to be harsh (and I don’t dispute your own experience) but it’s a walk in the park compared to the bear pit it once was,


For me, the reason I have lost patience with your posting is because you don’t explain why you hold a view, you just state it and when you’re pushed for detail or supporting evidence, or when someone disagrees with you in strong terms, you retreat to “yeah, well, that’s my view and if you don’t like it… I’m not even going to speculate… ” and the whole thing descends again, like it’s doing right now.

And then it goes round again.

This is why the other thread got started. Be proud! You’ve helped to drive development into new territory!

BIB - I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be grateful for that or to make allowances for it but I sure as hell didn't come here in order to be a sitting duck for belligerent arseholes to take potshots at.

I'd have thought that my reasons for holding the view I do that Trump is a vile, idiotic, lying piece of shit were self-evident - it's because he is precisely that. I cannot understand anyone who support and shares the mindset that Trump possesses and nor do I wish to. As a supposedly advanced species we the human race should be better evolved and doing rather better than shitting all over other people e.g. because they are women, because they are gay, because they are gender fluid, because they are poor, because they are of a different religion, because they have no religion at all, because their skin is of a different hue, because... reasons... and the list goes on and on.

Trump cares not one jot about these people and what matters to them and he never has done. He can no understanding whatsoever of the issues that matter to them because they have never affected him. He simply wanted their votes in order to help him stay out of jail and lo and behold, it worked!

Now he's exactly where he wanted to be, he will forget all about the promises he made before the election to improve their lives, their prospects and their living standards and instead has engaged in a bit of showy, performative bullshit for them all to hoot and holler about. They are all in for the biggest letdown of their lives and they just don't even see it.

 

[Wilf]

I’m definitely not a regular poster in P&P but I’ve read and followed countless threads over the years and I’m much better informed, more thoughtful and more careful as a result.

Yep, the whole University of Urban thing. To name just 2 of the top of my head, Gramsci has done a great job on the Palestine threads and hitmouse similarly on various threads, providing analysis and links to upcoming events.

 

[Wilf]

BIB - I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be grateful for that or to make allowances for it but I sure as hell didn't come here in order to be a sitting duck for belligerent arseholes to take potshots at.

I'd have thought that my reasons for holding the view I do that Trump is a vile, idiotic, lying piece of shit were self-evident - it's because he is precisely that. I cannot understand anyone who support and shares the mindset that Trump possesses and nor do I wish to. As a supposedly advanced species we the human race should be better evolved and doing rather better than shitting all over other people e.g. because they are women, because they are gay, because they are gender fluid, because they are poor, because they are of a different religion, because they have no religion at all, because their skin is of a different hue, because... reasons... and the list goes on and on.

Trump cares not one jot about these people and what matters to them and he never has done. He can no understanding whatsoever of the issues that matter to them because they have never affected him. He simply wanted their votes in order to help him stay out of jail and lo and behold, it worked!

Now he's exactly where he wanted to be, he will forget all about the promises he made before the election to improve their lives, their prospects and their living standards and instead has engaged in a bit of showy, performative bullshit for them all to hoot and holler about. They are all in for the biggest letdown of their lives and they just don't even see it.

I hope you take this as it's meant i.e. I'm not taking a potshot, but responding to what you are saying: particularly in the bold bit. In that you could be describing pretty much any horrific moment in history - the Third Reich would be the go to/Godwin's example. So, what happens when people have a serious discussion about fascism in the 1930s and the rise of the Nazis? Do they leave it at 'fuck them they were all anti-semites' or similar?

 

[Sue]

BIB - I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be grateful for that or to make allowances for it but I sure as hell didn't come here in order to be a sitting duck for belligerent arseholes to take potshots at.

I'd have thought that my reasons for holding the view I do that Trump is a vile, idiotic, lying piece of shit were self-evident - it's because he is precisely that. I cannot understand anyone who support and shares the mindset that Trump possesses and nor do I wish to. As a supposedly advanced species we the human race should be better evolved and doing rather better than shitting all over other people e.g. because they are women, because they are gay, because they are gender fluid, because they are poor, because they are of a different religion, because they have no religion at all, because their skin is of a different hue, because... reasons... and the list goes on and on.

Trump cares not one jot about these people and what matters to them and he never has done. He can no understanding whatsoever of the issues that matter to them because they have never affected him. He simply wanted their votes in order to help him stay out of jail and lo and behold, it worked!

Now he's exactly where he wanted to be, he will forget all about the promises he made before the election to improve their lives, their prospects and their living standards and instead has engaged in a bit of showy, performative bullshit for them all to hoot and holler about. They are all in for the biggest letdown of their lives and they just don't even see it.

I dont think there's a single person on here who doesn't despise Trump.

But posters are interested in trying to understand why so many people voted for him. Because what's the alternative? We dismiss 70 million Americans as being stupid and leave them to it? That seems pretty shortsighted (and not very smart).

 

[Rompipalle]

I hope you take this as it's meant i.e. I'm not taking a potshot, but responding to what you are saying: particularly in the bold bit. In that you could be describing pretty much any horrific moment in history - the Third Reich would be the go to/Godwin's example. So, what happens when people have a serious discussion about fascism in the 1930s and the rise of the Nazis? Do they leave it at 'fuck them they were all anti-semites' or similar?

I'm not sure what you expect me to say here? Yes, I'm utterly appalled at what is going on but us chatting about it in this forum isn't going to change the way that Trump and his ilk think, is it? That has to come from them.

 

[Rompipalle]

I dont think there's a single person on here who doesn't despise Trump.

But posters are interested in trying to understand why so many people voted for him. Because what's the alternative? We dismiss 70 million Americans as being stupid and leave them to it? That seems pretty shortsighted (and not very smart).

Do you imagine that we - or anyone else - can change their views? Surely only they can do that.

 

[story]

BIB - I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be grateful for that or to make allowances for it but I sure as hell didn't come here in order to be a sitting duck for belligerent arseholes to take potshots at.

I'd have thought that my reasons for holding the view I do that Trump is a vile, idiotic, lying piece of shit were self-evident - it's because he is precisely that. I cannot understand anyone who support and shares the mindset that Trump possesses and nor do I wish to. As a supposedly advanced species we the human race should be better evolved and doing rather better than shitting all over other people e.g. because they are women, because they are gay, because they are gender fluid, because they are poor, because they are of a different religion, because they have no religion at all, because their skin is of a different hue, because... reasons... and the list goes on and on.

Trump cares not one jot about these people and what matters to them and he never has done. He can no understanding whatsoever of the issues that matter to them because they have never affected him. He simply wanted their votes in order to help him stay out of jail and lo and behold, it worked!

Now he's exactly where he wanted to be, he will forget all about the promises he made before the election to improve their lives, their prospects and their living standards and instead has engaged in a bit of showy, performative bullshit for them all to hoot and holler about. They are all in for the biggest letdown of their lives and they just don't even see it.

Of course you don’t have to be grateful, especially of you don’t feel it. As I said I’m not disputing your experience. I’m just saying that while it may feel full on, be assured that you’re getting a lot more patience and grace than you might have done in the past. In other words, maybe find the use in it, maybe take what’s on offer, rather than digging into a position of entrenched defence. If you don’t there’s a risk you’ll end up getting dismissed and ridiculed as someone who refuses to take anything on board. We have a few of those here and they get short shrift, and it’s hard to come back from that. Since you’ve (apparently) decided to stay (and I’m glad of that) and you choose to post in P&P, you’ll just have a accept that there is a general antipathy to the way you couch your opinions. So you can either deal with the responses and the fall out, or give it some thought, or find other threads.

There’s been so much annoyance about the way the discussion has descended on this thread (not just down to you) that there’s an entirely new thread. People have actually left the room and gone to another room. You’ve not been thrown out, or shamed out, other people have left.


As for the rest: well it’s good to see some consideration rather than simple restatement, but it doesn’t really develop your point very far. The evidence is that we have not evolved or developed. Trump and his constituency is evidence of that. The larger more pressing question is :why, and what can be done about that.

I don’t know.

 

[klang]

I'm not sure what you expect me to say here? Yes, I'm utterly appalled at what is going on but us chatting about it in this forum isn't going to change the way that Trump and his ilk think, is it? That has to come from them.

surely the point of such a discussion is to learn something for the future? thinking about how and why and ways to somehow prevent?

 

[Monte]

I don’t see any views though Rompipalle . I see rhetoric.

Where is the evidence that they are thick?

Well, Americans are disillusioned over decades of decline and a political elite focused more on placating their donors than the American people.
As a result they voted for more of the same with a leader more in thrall to his billionaire donors and fossil fuel masters than any previous administration.

Not seeing much sign of intelligence there. More of a cultish devotion to a man who hates the same people they do.