Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Which is more irrational though, to believe someone saying that climate change is a hoax, or has been over-stated or whatever, based on a deep suspcions of institutions generally. Or to be certain that climate change is a imminent and deadly threat to all human life on earth and then to vote for a politician, like Harris, that was unlikely to do anything meaningful about it. Both positions are deeply irrational. Isn't that the problem? That there is no rationality on either side. It may not be rational to support or believe Trump, but neither is it rational to believe that Harris, or Starmer, or the centre left generally has any solutions to the problems both the planet and individuals face.

And if you're a white, non-migrant, straight, cis man, just about surviving on a below average income in a precarious industry, then is voting for Trump irrational given he pledged to cut taxes and introduce tariffs to protect your industry? It may be short sighted, it's certainly self-centered, but is it anymore more irrational than voting for someone who you don't feel is offering you anything at all, just more of the same?

Yeah fully agree with this.

I think it's important as well to recognise that the bulk of the Trump support isn't necessarily the angry abandoned working class of places like Youngstown. To a very large degree it's the regular embedded Republican vote. Are people wrong to vote Republican? I mean I'd rather they didn't of course but I don't think casting a vote for a Romney or a McCain or whoever would get you characterised as an irrational, idiotic conspiracy theorist would it? I think the understandable revulsion of Trump as an individual can obscure that a bit tbh.

 

[Wilf]

Yeah fully agree with this.

Ditto

I think it's important as well to recognise that the bulk of the Trump support isn't necessarily the angry abandoned working class of places like Youngstown. To a very large degree it's the regular embedded Republican vote. Are people wrong to vote Republican? I mean I'd rather they didn't of course but I don't think casting a vote for a Romney or a McCain or whoever would get you characterised as an irrational, idiotic conspiracy theorist would it? I think the understandable revulsion of Trump as an individual can obscure that a bit tbh.

Yes, it's a bit too easy, given the title of the thread to get into seeing Republican voters in 2024 as synonymous with Maga. Not only is that not correct, measurably a lot of Republican voters said they had reservations about Trump.

 

[Dystopiary]

You could argue it's irrational to perceive the ballot box as the way to meaningful change for the better.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

And now we’ve arrived at “voting is as irrational as believing climate change is fake”. I guess we’ve hit peak Urban.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If you're a Trump enthusiast, right now you perhaps think the ballot box is rather good for effecting change for the better.

 

[Wilf]

You could argue it's irrational to perceive the ballot box as the way to meaningful change for the better.

Yeah, this thread had me thinking about the decline in trust in politicians that has been going on since records began (1982 in this survey):

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/ipsos-trust-in-professions-veracity-index-2023

We might not like some of the directions that loss of trust has taken us - populism and the like - but I'd struggle to argue that the period where people showed higher levels of trust was itself 'rational'. In fact you could argue that people were being 'conned' by the politicians every bit as much then as they are under Trump and the rest. It's just the nature of the con has changed.

 

[Wilf]

And now we’ve arrived at “voting is as irrational as believing climate change is fake”. I guess we’ve hit peak Urban.

There is no Peak Urban, you just struggle up one mountain ridge and peer over the top, only too find there's another peak. And off you trudge.

 

[Dystopiary]

There is no Peak Urban, you just struggle up one mountain ridge and peer over the top, only too find there's another peak. And off you trudge.

A peak peek, if you will.

 

[smokedout]

Yeah fully agree with this.

I think it's important as well to recognise that the bulk of the Trump support isn't necessarily the angry abandoned working class of places like Youngstown. To a very large degree it's the regular embedded Republican vote. Are people wrong to vote Republican? I mean I'd rather they didn't of course but I don't think casting a vote for a Romney or a McCain or whoever would get you characterised as an irrational, idiotic conspiracy theorist would it? I think the understandable revulsion of Trump as an individual can obscure that a bit tbh.

Agree, I think there's too much focus on just one demographic. America is still a wealthy country with many wealthy people (and many more who have aspirations to be so) who will have voted Trump because they believed he is best aligned with their economic interests. They may not even care about the culture war stuff, they consider the Republicans the best party for business and will hold their noses and vote red no matter who ends up leading them.

 

[emanymton]

If I’m understanding the picture painted by articles such as the one linked above aright, Trump’s supporters don’t believe his bullshit, they just don’t care about it, and do believe (not unfairly) that he will break things, which they see as desirable.

I don't think this is quite true.
While very few will believe all of his bullshit, the vast majority will belive some of it.

And even if they recognise some of what he says his bullshit that won't make them question the bits they do belive.

 

[Wilf]

I don't think this is quite true.
While very few will believe all of his bullshit, the vast majority will belive some of it.

And even if they recognise some of what he says his bullshit that won't make them question the bits they do belive.

I suspect there's an issue of whether people truly 'believe' things as opposed to taking them on board because they sit with other things in their (and our) experiences of life. Some people will think big pharma/somebody else invented Covid, others will have a contempt for lots of institutions and structures that makes it easier for them to entertain the idea at some level. I can see the process in myself where, over the years, my antcapitalism has seen me at least "semi believe' all kinds of nonsense.

I suppose that's also one of the reasons I try to avoid thinking about 'them', someone different to me, being taken in as guileless marks. We are the products of similar processes, just maybe different influences and life circumstances.

By the by, that's not aimed at you, just making the comment more generally.

 

[emanymton]

I suspect there's an issue of whether people truly 'believe' things as opposed to taking them on board because they sit with other things in their (and our) experiences of life. Some people will think big pharma/somebody else invented Covid, others will have a contempt for lots of institutions and structures that makes it easier for them to entertain the idea at some level. I can see the process in myself where, over the years, my antcapitalism has seen me at least "semi believe' all kinds of nonsense.

I suppose that's also one of the reasons I try to avoid thinking about 'them', someone different to me, being taken in as guileless marks. We are the products of similar processes, just maybe different influences and life circumstances.

By the by, that's not aimed at you, just making the comment more generally.

In all the arguments about Trump voters and their intelligence what hasn't been brought up is the even more vexed question of their morality.

It doesn't matter if people belive bullshit if that belief is more or less harmless, but the consequences of they bullshit they belive is harmful.

I do think that on the whole they are less capable (or less willing) to critically examine information. But another question is, are they more willing to believe things that are harmful than others, because it is harmful?

 

[Petcha]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and am prepared for the firing squad but I gather this sudden volte face from Netanyahu is the result of Trump sending in his badass hatchet man for a couple of days after a dozen fruitless visits from Blinken?

Is Donald Trump behind potential Gaza ceasefire and will it work?

Israel and Hamas are 'on the brink' of a peace deal and hostage exchange, for which the incoming president may take credit

theweek.com

Strapping myself in for the ride once he dispatches him to Moscow/Kyiv

 

[kabbes]

What you say, particularly given this thread, brings to mind Down's Economic Theory of Democracy and public choice theory more generally.

Or, indeed, the work of the novel prize-winning economist Gary Becker, who espoused the theory that economic rationality needs to be applied to everything, from decisions about whether to have a child to whether to buy Christmas presents. That’s what we’re dealing with — the economic takeover of everything.