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Doctor Who Series 8

Vintage Paw said:
I despise Moffat for his sexism, racism and arrogance, but I love the stories he's written when they work well. As much as he has proven to me to be a vile individual, I've thoroughly enjoyed this series and he's absolutely upped his game (in a good way) wrt his previous sexism.
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racism?
 
There's certainly a lot of evidence that compared to RTD, Moffatt's series rarely write or cast black characters, and when they do, those characters generally conform to ethnic stereotypes. Not that Moffatt was blameless (little telly is), but having Mickey - whose characteristics were not black as much as they were simply working class, and Martha - who was a doctor... as prominent main characters, was exactly the kind of racially sensitive casting that all telly should be doing as standard in this day and age.

With Moffatt, though - until Danny there where no recurring BME characters (correct me if i'm wrong), and when characters do appear in individual stories, they have generally conformed to ethnic stereotype (qv - the travel-sick teenager in this series: feckless and disaffected - one of the school's notoriously 'difficult' kids). If you look at 'Sherlock', Moffatt's other headline project, not only is there a massive absence of BME characters, but there is, as Vintage Paw says, that absolutely dreadful espisode with all the Chinese Triad stuff.
 
Just got around to watching the finale double bill last night. Mostly enjoyed it but I stand by my earlier comments about the series in general: Capaldi is massively better than the last two, there've been some great plot ideas, but the execution still seems cobbled together far too often. Clara has developed well as a character and I like the relationship with Capaldi's doctor, but still can't summon up a rat's fart's worth of interest in her relationship with Danny, so it feels to me that they wasted large chunks of the series on this that could have been better used creating more scary, more convincing and more deeply satisfying episodes out of some of the could've-been-better ones.

Unless I've missed something while catching up on this thread this morning, though, I seem to be the only person who fucking hated Missy?

Gomez's schtick worked perfectly in Green Wing where the sheer why-the-fuck-is-she-doing-that-ness of all that gurning and cavorting around was what made it funny. The odd cartoonish or comically exaggerated villain is one thing, but Missy was even more cardboard and 2D than that - it was like watching pantomime, or Punch and Judy. Particularly once it was clear the cybermen weren't going to do anything truly nasty (I'm in the minority of two or three here who found them more scary than daleks as a child, so I was hopeful...) I could really have done with a bit less skipping and a bit more threat from the supposed arch-villain.
 
spanglechick said:
There's certainly a lot of evidence that compared to RTD, Moffatt's series rarely write or cast black characters, and when they do, those characters generally conform to ethnic stereotypes. Not that Moffatt was blameless (little telly is), but having Mickey - whose characteristics were not black as much as they were simply working class, and Martha - who was a doctor... as prominent main characters, was exactly the kind of racially sensitive casting that all telly should be doing as standard in this day and age.

With Moffatt, though - until Danny there where no recurring BME characters (correct me if i'm wrong), and when characters do appear in individual stories, they have generally conformed to ethnic stereotype (qv - the travel-sick teenager in this series: feckless and disaffected - one of the school's notoriously 'difficult' kids). If you look at 'Sherlock', Moffatt's other headline project, not only is there a massive absence of BME characters, but there is, as Vintage Paw says, that absolutely dreadful espisode with all the Chinese Triad stuff.
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I don't necessarily disagree, but I think what you are suggesting implies intent. Moffat, at worst, may be ignorant. That may be a fair charge to level at his writing, but to suggest he is racist? Come on! You need stronger evidence surely?

I think on balance RTD era stories were more satisfying and the companions more interesting. But is it necessary that Moffat include more minority characters?

Which was the triad episode?
 
Vintage Paw said:
I was searching for something else, but stumbled upon this. It's one of the best things I've read about the Moffat era: http://www.philipsandifer.com/2014/03/guest-post-steven-moffat-case-for.html

It focuses mostly on Moffat's neo-liberalism, while spending some time also on gender, sexism, heteronormativity (and an also-ran mention of racism, yes).
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Christ that's depressing reading isn't it? I have to agree with most of it though. The whole thing with Amy's forced pregnancy, and the fact that the whole ordeal was basically forgotten about from one week to the next and then dragged up again for a series finale, was a definite low point. It didn't even make any fucking sense.
 
billy_bob said:
Gomez's schtick worked perfectly in Green Wing where the sheer why-the-fuck-is-she-doing-that-ness of all that gurning and cavorting around was what made it funny. The odd cartoonish or comically exaggerated villain is one thing, but Missy was even more cardboard and 2D than that - it was like watching pantomime, or Punch and Judy. Particularly once it was clear the cybermen weren't going to do anything truly nasty (I'm in the minority of two or three here who found them more scary than daleks as a child, so I was hopeful...) I could really have done with a bit less skipping and a bit more threat from the supposed arch-villain.
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I think it worked pretty well because of the sucker-punch at the end. Missy wasn't cooking up some orgy of destruction for the sake of it (a weakness of many super villains, including previous Masters) she was simply going to extreme lengths to impress the closest thing she has in the universe to a friend. You could say that the Master going (relatively) soft as soon as she turns female is another example of reversion to sexist tropes but I think it's more a case of the Master acting like a proper character with actual motivations for doing stuff, something Moffat's previous female characters have often fallen short of.
 
Awesome Wells said:
I don't necessarily disagree, but I think what you are suggesting implies intent. Moffat, at worst, may be ignorant. That may be a fair charge to level at his writing, but to suggest he is racist? Come on! You need stronger evidence surely?

I think on balance RTD era stories were more satisfying and the companions more interesting. But is it necessary that Moffat include more minority characters?

Which was the triad episode?
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well, i don't know if i'd actually say he was deliberately racist... but he's one of the most prominent writers and showrunners in UK telly. This stuff will have been mentioned to him more than once as part of his career over the last couple of decades. And he continues to choose to ignore it - we don't know why.


The triad thing was the middle episode of Sherlock season two, iirc. Some mystery signal being left at murder scenes and a chinese circus in town. The climactic scene happened in some kind of tunnel, iirc.
 
We are, as a nation, far more happy to accept orientalism than we are other types of racism in our media. Very prevalent in our friends across the pond as well. Perhaps apt this was called the BLIND banker, since we are often collectively blind to it.
 
spanglechick said:
well, i don't know if i'd actually say he was deliberately racist... but he's one of the most prominent writers and showrunners in UK telly. This stuff will have been mentioned to him more than once as part of his career over the last couple of decades. And he continues to choose to ignore it - we don't know why.


The triad thing was the middle episode of Sherlock season two, iirc. Some mystery signal being left at murder scenes and a chinese circus in town. The climactic scene happened in some kind of tunnel, iirc.
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I don't remember that. I must have missed it.

Is it true to say he would have been made aware of racial issues? I have no idea what the writing culture is like in the BBC. I would hope writers are aware, but it's a different world.
 
Awesome Wells said:
I don't remember that. I must have missed it.

Is it true to say he would have been made aware of racial issues? I have no idea what the writing culture is like in the BBC. I would hope writers are aware, but it's a different world.
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Who knows what he is or isn't aware of. All the more reason for it to be talked about.
 
Awesome Wells said:
I don't remember that. I must have missed it.

Is it true to say he would have been made aware of racial issues? I have no idea what the writing culture is like in the BBC. I would hope writers are aware, but it's a different world.
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he lives in Britain (in London, afaia) and writes about people in the 21st century. there are no bloody excuses for thinking the world is near-universally white and middle class, and that the exceptions to that are (generally comedic) stereotypes of proles/BME people.
 
Vintage Paw said:
We are, as a nation, far more happy to accept orientalism than we are other types of racism in our media. Very prevalent in our friends across the pond as well. Perhaps apt this was called the BLIND banker, since we are often collectively blind to it.
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do 'honourable' watch in the news media when a Japanese sportsman or bigwig visits.

the news scripters can't help themselves.
 
Vintage Paw said:
We are, as a nation, far more happy to accept orientalism than we are other types of racism in our media. Very prevalent in our friends across the pond as well. Perhaps apt this was called the BLIND banker, since we are often collectively blind to it.
Click to expand...

Good point; it's from another era but the Talons of Weng Chiang - watched in not too long ago & wow; exceptionally offensive!
 
belboid said:
The fact that I dislike the useless fraud Chen in no way biases my opinion, that that's a shit article, with its decent points lost amidst the utter wank.
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Rather too many knowing cultural references and free-range imagery in there for me to make much sense of it.

a dream, a mish-mash of half-remembered images and tropes
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Never a truer word spoken.
 
Who cakes!

10710906-25698790-thumbnail.jpg
 
Moffat confirms what we all knew, that its now canon that the Doc can be female. Says gender is fluid on Gallifrey. Hints that the next doc should be a woman.

which is great n all but what with how dissatisfied people are with moffats writing of female characters... could go horribly wrong.
 
If gender is so fluid on Gallifrey, how is it that the Doctor can recognise everyone who regenerates to the same gender, but not the Master/Missy when she regenerated as a woman?
And why did they play the gender swap as a big reveal? And why would the Master choose a name he thinks is gender specific? (When actually, the degree isn't).
 
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