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Disruption at Book Fairs

chilango said:
None of this helps sort out the real danger to what little infrastructure a weakened anarchist movement has at the moment.

That's what I want to discuss.
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If anyone reads about these events from the wider liberal/left pool the fisticuff aspect always dominates soon the equation will be bookfair = punch up about gender.
 
sihhi said:
If anyone reads about these events from the wider liberal/left pool the fisticuff aspect always dominates soon the equation will be bookfair = punch up about gender.
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I think that's a bit unfair.

Bookfair = punch up. It could be about anything.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
Yeah I was going to mention that.

As far as I can remember it:

Jeni Harvey was on the Chronos (marxist/situ publisher, Postone and all that) stand handing out a leaflet/small booklet about trans issues / the gender recognition act/consultation. I realised afterwards that she was only giving them to women. (A woman I was with gave me her copy as she couldn't be arsed with it)

Chronos would usually be at the London Anarchist Bookfair and the London Radical Bookfair but are not known for this sort of material.

My understanding is that when the organisers of the LRB realised that this leaflet was being distributed they asked Jeni not to hand it out. Jeni agreed to this (and has written about what happened herself here.)

Later on that day, chilango , another (now ex-) U75 poster and I left for the pub and were given the leaflet by the same women who was outside the gates of Goldsmiths with two or three other people.

The content of the leaflet was not as incendiary as some of the material handed out at the London Anarchist Bookfair.

From Jeni's account linked above it looks like there was a bit of verbals from Goldsmiths students / people visiting the bookfair later on.

So there was less drama involved, yes. But there being less drama relies on the behaviour of the leafletters and the organisers equally.
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Not worth going over this just for the sake of it, but there is reason to i think as its says a lot about the nature of these GRA bookfair visits. My understanding of what happened on that occasion is: initial drama was defused through discussion, and by agreement they handed out pamphlets outside the gates.....but then breaking that agreement Jeni and her spoiling-for-a-fight partner came back on the grounds specifically after seeing a small group of genderqueer people, beelined over to them, and handed the leaflets to them, and lo and behold a fight immediately broke out, just like they wanted, and full martyrdom was complete. They filmed that argument on a phone, as they probably thought it would make great propaganda, except likely on looking back at the footage they realised they looked like idiots and it never made its way to the net.

Eventually that final fight was also defused but there then followed the obligatory sprint to the nearest computer for maximum impact write-ups, retweets and boycotting emails. Jeni's account is full of inaccuracies if not deliberate lies, but life is too short to pick through them. Her partner wrote even worse victimised bollocks. Of course those who weren't there and actively want every worse presentation of it to be true, duly repeat and repost without a care about the reality or the implications, confirmation bias on overdrive.

I am convinced people like this actively seek drama and confrontation and feed off it. A relatively peaceful resolution was found on the day, but that would've meant them leaving without enough drama, so they deliberately went and found themselves some beef before the day was done. Vampires.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Should trans-related issues be discussed in anarchist and movement spaces - in theory yes of course. But its the attitude of some of those activists involved that makes that impossible. By now everyone recognises how volatile an issue this can be and so in the spirit of lack of disruption of our precious few spaces, and in the spirit of finding unabusive solutions, you'd expect everyone to be tiptoeing as lightly as possible for the greater good. Clearly not. Instead its abusive stickers up in the womens bogs, lets film what happens if i hand this flyer to a genderqueer student, back track on agreements with organisers etc etc etc etc.

In short, the window for peaceful debate in our shared spaces has closed, and there are still plenty of people wanting to lob bricks through that window for good measure. THEY have made the issue off limits from discussion and no one else.

I think organisers are well in their rights to put a moratorium on the discussion of anything related to this issue, and they should have the widest of support in so doing, no matter where you might stand on the issues. Why should broader events be spoiled by those wishing to weaponise this dispute over and over again? Sad state of affairs but what other option is there in the short term?

Incidentally, does anyone know when the government will make its announcements on the GRA? I thought its due quite soon now. My only hope is once the governments procedure is over it will take some of the heat out of this. That might be wishful thinking though.
PeterTCA said:
To score a particular point they are happy to see the event destroyed. In future we need to protect ourselves. As was pointed out they are free to put in the work to host their own fair, their own meetings.
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Impossible not to agree with that. These woke anarchist leafleters know full well that bookfairs are shutting down in the wake of this debate, clearly incapable of dealing with the ruptures and conflicts that arise, yet off they happily trot up to Manchester, despite knowing they aren't welcome and that being there will guarantee disruption.

For all the talk of anti-divisiveness, bigger picture class struggle allegedly cared about in that Woke Anarchist text, off they go once again without a care that the single issue they are focussed on might destroy any chance of that wider work being nurtured.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
Plus it's quite difficult to have a conversation with someone who is just going to shout "penis" repeatedly.
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Cheers - just spluttered coffee out of my nose. Trying to catch up with the thread when I should be working. 20 minutes go I was in exactly the situation you describe, albeit with a 6 year old boy:

Me:How are you feeling this morning?
6yo: .........
Me: Mummy tells me that you were unhap
6yo: penis
Me: py with how thin
6yo: penispenis
Me: gs went yesterday after
6yo: penispenispenis
Me: noon.
6yo: you're a penis and mummy's a penis
Me: Have you seen the new spiderman com
6yo: penispenispenis
Me: ic I brought in today
6yo: spiderman's a penis
Me: .................
6yo: penispenisPENISPENISPENISPEEEEEEEENIIIIIIIIIIIIS *runs off down corridor*
Me: :facepalm: (but also :D:D:D)
 
Threshers_Flail said:
Great post ska invita .

I was at the event on Saturday, as I've said before, it was great. Just a shame that so much discussion since then has been spent on about 30 minutes of (relatively) minor disruption by four individuals who knew they weren't welcome.
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Were they unwelcome because of the leaflets they gave out, things they'd given out or done in the past, or some other reason? Not trying to be obtuse, but I think it's important.
 
Threshers_Flail said:
I don't know as I was too far away to hear everything, but I think they were asked to leave because of things done in the past.
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OK, so that's quite important.

Things they'd all done in the past, or just some of them? And does that mean they're not welcome at events even if they don't give out leaflets?
 
LynnDoyleCooper said:
OK, so that's quite important.

Things they'd all done in the past, or just some of them? And does that mean they're not welcome at events even if they don't give out leaflets?
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I'd suggest that speculating about this in a public forum is unhelpful and ask you to note the edit above.

Inevitably there will be different bookfairs with different views on this and seemingly some venues will also have policies/views too.
 
Edie said:
Making this statement, no matter how practically trans inclusive you may be, is what defines you as a “Terf”.

This is what you are no longer allowed to say.
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You can't really claim to be being inclusive of transwomen if your starting point is that transwomen are not women though, can you? Which is not to say I want to have the fight with you. But it sounds like you're claiming that people hold this view but are also trying really hard to be inclusive of transwomen and I'm not sure I've seen any of that from any one.

This thread has been interesting to me as a 'trot' and therefore probably basically a Stalinist to many who will attend the Bookfairs.

I guess I have three basic points:

1) This group of people sound like attention seeking wankers. There, I've sidestepped 'TERF', although they sound pretty rad fem, even if they do have some legitimate criticisms of identity politics and its influence on the broad labour movement.

2) If you think TERF, or for that matter SJW or anarcho or Tankie or Trot or whatever are terms of abuse, I've got to conclude you went to a posh school.

3) I realise they're not directly comparable events and they have a different ethos. But whenever we do big public events where people from other left traditions critical of our politics are likely to turn up (I'm in the SP) Chairs of discussions are always given strict instructions to welcome people from other orgs or political backgrounds, give them extra speaking time to make their points, and generally facilitate them. It would be lovely to say that this was purely about having the most democratic debate possible, and of course that aspect can be stressed, but of course it is in fact partially to allow critical voices to raise their criticisms, then allow everyone in the room to berate them, and give them the choice of whether they want to meekly listen to the responses in a polite fashion or kick off and make themselves look daft. It avoids anyone being able to claim they are 'silenced' or that we don't believe in free debate etc.

Obviously the organisers are under no obligation to provide a platform to anyone they don't want to. But it seems like the general idea of not allowing 'gender critical'/bigot voices (there I didn't say TERF) at events is failing, because it's allowing quite an elderly fringe to portray themselves as being silenced and oppressed, rather than simply not being very relevant or useful.

PS The fact that men physically ejected women def not a good look.
 
ska invita said:
...Should trans-related issues be discussed in anarchist and movement spaces - in theory yes of course. But its the attitude of some of those activists involved that makes that impossible. By now everyone recognises how volatile an issue this can be and so in the spirit of lack of disruption of our precious few spaces, and in the spirit of finding unabusive solutions, you'd expect everyone to be tiptoeing as lightly as possible for the greater good. Clearly not. Instead its abusive stickers up in the womens bogs, lets film what happens if i hand this flyer to a genderqueer student, back track on agreements with organisers etc etc etc etc.

In short, the window for peaceful debate in our shared spaces has closed, and there are still plenty of people wanting to lob bricks through that window for good measure. THEY have made the issue off limits from discussion and no one else.

I think organisers are well in their rights to put a moratorium on the discussion of anything related to this issue, and they should have the widest of support in so doing, no matter where you might stand on the issues. Why should broader events be spoiled by those wishing to weaponise this dispute over and over again? Sad state of affairs but what other option is there in the short term?

Incidentally, does anyone know when the government will make its announcements on the GRA? I thought its due quite soon now. My only hope is once the governments procedure is over it will take some of the heat out of this. That might be wishful thinking though.

Impossible not to agree with that. These woke anarchist leafleters know full well that bookfairs are shutting down in the wake of this debate, clearly incapable of dealing with the ruptures and conflicts that arise, yet off they happily trot up to Manchester, despite knowing they aren't welcome and that being there will guarantee disruption.

For all the talk of anti-divisiveness, bigger picture class struggle allegedly cared about in that Woke Anarchist text, off they go once again without a care that the single issue they are focussed on might destroy any chance of that wider work being nurtured.
Click to expand...

I think I'm coming to the conclusion that the best (probably actually least bad) way forward is, as you suggest, a moratorium on the discussion of anything related to this issue at events like bookfairs which are aimed at being gatherings of anarchist sympathizers where a variety of discussions on a variety of subjects can take place.

Rather than attempting to exclude people or groups whose views or actions around this subject are seen as objectionable by some others, and therefore being viewed as taking sides even if that's not the intention, better to focus on issues where general constructive dialogue is possible, even where people's opinions understandably differ.

And if those at both extremes of the debate want a platform to carry on their discussion, maybe they should organise such things themselves rather than attempting to parasite on and inevitably disrupt the activities of others.

I said it once already but I still think it's hugely ironic and completely lacking in any awareness that after having their attempts to get a stall etc declined, these people turned up and handed out leaflets claiming that
To us anarchism is cooperation, mutual aid, solidarity and fighting the real centres of power. Anarchist spaces should not be for those who merely want to fight those around them.
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SpackleFrog said:
You can't really claim to be being inclusive of transwomen if your starting point is that transwomen are not women though, can you? Which is not to say I want to have the fight with you. But it sounds like you're claiming that people hold this view but are also trying really hard to be inclusive of transwomen and I'm not sure I've seen any of that from any one.

This thread has been interesting to me as a 'trot' and therefore probably basically a Stalinist to many who will attend the Bookfairs.

I guess I have three basic points:

1) This group of people sound like attention seeking wankers. There, I've sidestepped 'TERF', although they sound pretty rad fem, even if they do have some legitimate criticisms of identity politics and its influence on the broad labour movement.

2) If you think TERF, or for that matter SJW or anarcho or Tankie or Trot or whatever are terms of abuse, I've got to conclude you went to a posh school.

3) I realise they're not directly comparable events and they have a different ethos. But whenever we do big public events where people from other left traditions critical of our politics are likely to turn up (I'm in the SP) Chairs of discussions are always given strict instructions to welcome people from other orgs or political backgrounds, give them extra speaking time to make their points, and generally facilitate them. It would be lovely to say that this was purely about having the most democratic debate possible, and of course that aspect can be stressed, but of course it is in fact partially to allow critical voices to raise their criticisms, then allow everyone in the room to berate them, and give them the choice of whether they want to meekly listen to the responses in a polite fashion or kick off and make themselves look daft. It avoids anyone being able to claim they are 'silenced' or that we don't believe in free debate etc.

Obviously the organisers are under no obligation to provide a platform to anyone they don't want to. But it seems like the general idea of not allowing 'gender critical'/bigot voices (there I didn't say TERF) at events is failing, because it's allowing quite an elderly fringe to portray themselves as being silenced and oppressed, rather than simply not being very relevant or useful.

PS The fact that men physically ejected women def not a good look.
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SpackleFrog I don’t think I’m an anarchist (although sometimes interested, in any road never been to an anarchist meeting) so said I said I’d not get involved.

Does raise questions of how dissenting voices (or people with different ideas or possibly even just women) are treated in this kind of political space tho so still reading.
 
Edie said:
SpackleFrog I don’t think I’m an anarchist (although sometimes interested, in any road never been to an anarchist meeting) so said I said I’d not get involved.

Does raise questions of how dissenting voices (or people with different ideas or possibly even just women) are treated in this kind of political space tho so still reading.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. But what about this transwomen are not women/being inclusive of trans women dichotomy? What do you mean about being practically inclusive of transwomen while simultaneously arguing that transwomen are in fact men presenting as women?
 
SpackleFrog said:
Fair enough. But what about this transwomen are not women/being inclusive of trans women dichotomy? What do you mean about being practically inclusive of transwomen while simultaneously arguing that transwomen are in fact men presenting as women?
Click to expand...
Briefly then, happy to share the bogs, less happy to share a hospital ward or compete in sport, don’t literally consider them female.

Ie not completely excluding them, whilst simultaneously recognising that being female-sexed is the basis for much of women’s discrimination.

Now I promised to say no more.
 
Edie said:
SpackleFrog I don’t think I’m an anarchist (although sometimes interested, in any road never been to an anarchist meeting) so said I said I’d not get involved.

Does raise questions of how dissenting voices (or people with different ideas or possibly even just women) are treated in this kind of political space tho so still reading.
Click to expand...

Perhaps some perspective would help.

I have personally attended these two meetings at the London Anarchist Bookfair

1. In the mid-90s Stewart Home and Fabian Tompsett continually wound up the anarchist movement by pointing at some slightly obscure tendencies it had towards fascist thought. These were mainly historical, like Bakunin's anti-semitism. Or loony but current like the nonsense Green Anarchist came out with.

Stewart and Fabian held a meeting about this at the Anarchist Bookfair at Conway Hall. It was fractious, it was shouty, it was probably pointless. But it happened.

2. In the early noughties the Hackney Branch of the IWCA held a meeting at the bookfair which given the IWCA's strategy around elections (which anarchists pretty much universally reject) and many of its prominent members hostility to anarchism ("it will never work") was also surprising.

That was actually a great, comradely respectful meeting.

More generally you will see stalls at the bookfair from Catholic Worker in the same room as a massive banner at Active Distribution saying "Religion Is Stupid".

I'll probably think of more examples in a minute.

Bob Black famously once said "If anarchists can put up with each other, they will put up with anyone".

I think recent events are showing that even anarchists have limits.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
Perhaps some perspective would help.

I have personally attended these two meetings at the London Anarchist Bookfair

1. In the mid-90s Stewart Home and Fabian Tompsett continually wound up the anarchist movement by pointing at some slightly obscure tendencies it had towards fascist thought. These were mainly historical, like Bakunin's anti-semitism. Or loony but current like the nonsense Green Anarchist came out with.

Stewart and Fabian held a meeting about this at the Anarchist Bookfair at Conway Hall. It was fractious, it was shouty, it was probably pointless. But it happened.

2. In the early noughties the Hackney Branch of the IWCA held a meeting at the bookfair which given the IWCA's strategy around elections (which anarchists pretty much universally reject) and many of its prominent members hostility to anarchism ("it will never work") was also surprising.

That was actually a great, comradely respectful meeting.

More generally you will see stalls at the bookfair from Catholic Worker in the same room as a massive banner at Active Distribution saying "Religion Is Stupid".

I'll probably think of more examples in a minute.

Bob Black famously once said "If anarchists can put up with each other, they will put up with anyone".

I think recent events are showing that even anarchists have limits.
Click to expand...
And what a surprise those limits are women.
 
Edie said:
Briefly then, happy to share the bogs, less happy to share a hospital ward or compete in sport, don’t literally consider them female.

Ie not completely excluding them, whilst simultaneously recognising that being female-sexed is the basis for much of women’s discrimination.

Now I promised to say no more.
Click to expand...

That's fair enough, thanks for engaging. Still seems a difficult circle to square.
 
crossthebreeze said:
I'm not feeling great today, so not engaging much, but thanks LynnDoyleCooper and Fozzie Bear especially for finding/putting out evidence for what actually happened. I've seen a right lot of shit on facebook about this which I thought couldn't be true, and when "both""sides" are basing their argument on rumours and lies its not going to do anyone - or the anarchist movement - any good.
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This.
 
Definite lesson for future bookfairs, pretty sure this will be a big topic for Bristol. :rolleyes: Not to throw out the obsessed trans bashers or beligerent trans rights fanatics of either side. Not a good look 4 women being physically removed from an anarchist bookfair, I agree.

There has to be a reasonable debate, but more than that youd imagine and hope that any anarchist bookfair would have engaging important stuff going on that it could eclipse and move beyond the never-ending trans madness.

If people cant have their views rigerously challenged at an anarchist event without having a huff, maybe they shouldn't be there.:thumbs:
 
Riklet said:
Definite lesson for future bookfairs, pretty sure this will be a big topic for Bristol. :rolleyes: Not to throw out the obsessed trans bashers or beligerent trans rights fanatics of either side. Not a good look 4 women being physically removed from an anarchist bookfair, I agree.

There has to be a reasonable debate, but more than that youd imagine and hope that any anarchist bookfair would have engaging important stuff going on that it could eclipse and move beyond the never-ending trans madness.

If people cant have their views rigerously challenged at an anarchist event without having a huff, maybe they shouldn't be there.:thumbs:
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Book 2 venues for the bookfair, and have the gender critical / terf meeting at the smaller of the two. Perhaps in Telford.
 
Edie said:
And what a surprise those limits are women.
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Not sure exactly what you mean? perhaps worth considering and remembering what happened at the anarchafeminist all-dayer in 2014

I wasnt there so cant tell you exactly what happened but my recollection is
.. The organisers got badly burned by the fighting on the day and aftermath storm and won't be organising another one (such a shame and waste that, gutting, i think it was a really useful initiative)
.. have a guess what issue it was that created all the stress
.. some of the same names cropped up there as other events under discussion here. Pretty sure Helen Steel was one of those involved (apologies if i got that wrong)

Heres a write up with one of the people involved on a practical level, written in the immediate aftermath

"A group of trans exclusionary radical feminists (known as TERFs for short) tried to undermine the event. Someone who had been on the organiser list from the start lied about their willingness to uphold the inclusion policy to other organisers. They then positioned themselves to help present the Introduction to Anarcha-Feminism where they went off the presentation planned with the co-facilitator in order to spout some transphobic bile. At the same time they were seen conferring with other terfs before they dispersed into each session and parrot the same transphobic talking points, and appeared to be using the quiet space to regroup and plan.

Attempts were made to remove the TERFs by some of the organisers but this unity was undermined and they used the confusion caused by sabotage of the consensus we had otherwise forged for the event to hang about. Despite this betrayal and sabotage, everyone I talked with found that any move towards transphobic discussion was quickly shut down and made unwelcome, and that the issue was handled better than most events. However, there was still a lack of consistency on how those breaking with the safer spaces agreement were dealt with."

That account basically matches what a friend who was there says happened.
"Betrayal and sabotage", too strong? Hard to disagree with that. I think thats what it amounts to.

A reminder of their publicly stated inclusion policy
Who is the conference open to?

Our conference is open to all people who are the target of gender oppression, by which we mean sexism, misogyny, trans misogyny, cissexism, transphobia and binarism. If this applies to you, you are welcome as long as you act in accordance with our safer spaces policy.

We wish in particular to stress that, as anarcha-feminists, we take transphobia very seriously. Feminism and anarchism as movements have historically excluded and marginalised trans people, and continue to do so. Trans women, in particular, have been excluded from many branches of feminism. Because of this, we want to be especially clear that including trans women is a high priority for the conference.
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