Disruption at Book Fairs

[Fozzie Bear]

I am amazed that anyone on U75 would think that wading into this thread and asking a question like "Hey what is a TERF anyway guys?" is a constructive thing to do.

 

[LDC]

So there was less drama involved, yes. But there being less drama relies on the behaviour of the leafletters and the organisers equally.

I think this is important. The people doing the throwing out on Saturday had, in my opinion and from what I saw, already decided to throw out the people leafleting irrespective of the content of the leaflets. Indeed, a few claimed they hadn't even read the leaflets. Now, this may be a fair position depending on the people and their history with this sort of thing, but it is worth noting I think.

 

[killer b]

I think you’re missing the fact that co-op was clearly saying that.

It’s hard enough to discuss this issue without us also misunderstanding each other’s rhetorical devices.

pretending to misunderstand each other's rhetorical devices even.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I think this is important. The people doing the throwing out on Saturday had, in my opinion and from what I saw, already decided to throw out the people leafleting irrespective of the content of the leaflets. Indeed, a few claimed they hadn't even read the leaflets. Now, this may be a fair position depending on the people and their history with this sort of thing, but it is worth noting I think.

Exactly.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think you’re missing the fact that co-op was clearly saying that.

It’s hard enough to discuss this issue without us also misunderstanding each other’s rhetorical devices.

fair enough.

 

[LDC]

Someone had plastered the Bookfair with trans supportive posters, which for a brief optimistic moment I thought might have been the response to the expected leafleting that had been decided upon.

 

[co-op]

I think you’re missing the fact that co-op was clearly saying that.

It’s hard enough to discuss this issue without us also misunderstanding each other’s rhetorical devices.

TBF with Pickman's there is a deep psychological need to misunderstand people generally and me in particular. I'm not sure what SpookyFrank's reason is. The point seems obvious to me; context is all.

 

[Pickman's model]

Someone had plastered the Bookfair with trans supportive posters, which for a brief optimistic moment I thought might have been the response that had been decided upon.

after the last fifteen months that was a forlorn hope

 

[LDC]

Fixed by my IT department.

 

[Pickman's model]

TBF with Pickman's there is a deep psychological need to misunderstand people generally and me in particular. I'm not sure what SpookyFrank's reason is. The point seems obvious to me; context is all.

i misread while in a hurry, my bad. you by contrast have a sorry history of talking bollocks about me from the laughable 'little clarkson' on one of the cycling threads to your rather more serious but equally bollocks claim i've posted anti-semitic stuff. i wonder what psychological need that satisfied in you.

 

[LDC]

And then this article was printed as a leaflet as well.

Gay Rights and Trans Rights – A Compare and Contrast

 

[Pickman's model]

Copy of another one of the leaflets handed out...

2:

 

[Fozzie Bear]

 

[Edie]

A woman is someone with a female body and any personality NOT someone with a female personality and any body

Making this statement, no matter how practically trans inclusive you may be, is what defines you as a “Terf”.

This is what you are no longer allowed to say.

 

[LDC]

Thanks, that's better Pickman's model.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Making this statement, no matter how practically trans inclusive you may be, is what defines you as a “Terf”.

This is what you are no longer allowed to say.

I suppose I'd better accept that I'm a Terf, then.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

or identity politics masquerading as materialism. 'working class identity politics.' inter-scene squabbling as they continue to lose their social base and ascend to the middle classes themselves. But hey I'm not invested in this debate. 2010s anarchist movement doesn't really seem to care for disability politics at all. and disability is the modality through which i live economically.

Thread on ignore but still seems to be showing up in my recent threads list.

 

[chilango]

I would like this thread to be more about how we* are able to proceed logistically/practically during these times and in the face of atomised and polarised camps entrenching themselves - and less about repeating the terf/trans arguments that rage elsewhere.

*and whilst I fully admit that I'm barely part of this "we" anymore, this kinda thing is dissuading me from changing that anytime soon.

 

[Pickman's model]

I would like this thread to be more about how we* are able to proceed logistically/practically during these times and in the face of atomised and polarised camps entrenching themselves - and less about repeating the terf/trans arguments that rage elsewhere.

*and whilst I fully admit that I'm barely part of this "we" anymore, this kinda thing is dissuading me from changing that anytime soon.

perhaps by having at least clear statements on who is responsible for what. it's confusing to find that the venue, the partisan, and the event, the bookfair, seem to have had different rules, that where the bookfair seems to have been happy to host their stall the venue refused.

 

[smokedout]

Making this statement, no matter how practically trans inclusive you may be, is what defines you as a “Terf”.

This is what you are no longer allowed to say.

And yet you just said it. This is just UKIP pub bore stuff except coming from the other direction - look how brave I am saying the forbidden terrible thing that everyone keeps saying everywhere you fucking look.

But I agree with chilango really, can't we keep this for the other thread and let this be a thread for anarchists to discuss how this conflict is affecting anarchist organising.

 

[Edie]

And yet you just said it. This is just UKIP pub bore stuff except coming from the other direction - look how brave I am saying the forbidden terrible thing that everyone keeps saying everywhere you fucking look.

But I agree with chilango really, can't we keep this for the other thread and let this be a thread for anarchists to discuss how this conflict is affecting anarchist organising.

Sure, I’ll duck out.

 

[Athos]

I would like this thread to be more about how we* are able to proceed logistically/practically during these times and in the face of atomised and polarised camps entrenching themselves - and less about repeating the terf/trans arguments that rage elsewhere.

*and whilst I fully admit that I'm barely part of this "we" anymore, this kinda thing is dissuading me from changing that anytime soon.

I agree in principle. But it's difficult in practice, as the question of who should be allowed to do what at which events turns very much on the specifics of what they're doing.

 

[SpookyFrank]

e2a: Nah, forget it.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

You just fucking said it though.

The women who handed out leaflets saying it were bodily removed.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The women who handed out leaflets saying it were bodily removed.

That's all the leaflets said was it?

 

[kabbes]

Saying, "but you just said it" strips the statement "you can’t say X" of all context. The point isn't that it is illegal to say X, it is that to say it makes one a pariah in the community to which one feels one should belong.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Saying, "but you just said it" strips the statement "you can say X" of all context. The point isn't that it is illegal to say X, it is that to say it makes one a pariah in the community to which one feels one should belong.

Not everyone belongs where they think they belong. Isn't that rather the main thrust of TERF thought?

A few people have been forced to leave these halls because of these issues. None, to my knowledge, have been on the side of those now claiming to be silenced or made pariahs.

 

[kabbes]

The fact that people are being confronted with the statement "not everyone belongs where they think they belong" is the entire meaning of the statement "you can't say X".

 

[Pickman's model]

Not everyone belongs where they think they belong. Isn't that rather the main thrust of TERF thought?

A few people have been forced to leave these halls because of these issues. None, to my knowledge, have been on the side of those now claiming to be silenced or made pariahs.

yeh i was under the impression that "gender critical"/terf people thought that they were the majority and i have never heard of a majority which considered itself pariah-ised.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The fact that people are being confronted with the statement "not everyone belongs where they think they belong" is the entire meaning of the statement "you can't say X".

But X is a statement which amounts to 'you don't belong where you say you belong'.