Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[elbows]

On testing, btw - I got this email today (from FluSurvey, who my daughter and I signed up with a couple of years ago) -

To better understand the spread of coronavirus and improve its response, we would like to invite you to take part in a self testing survey. We will randomly select a proportion of Flusurvey participants who agree to participate as well as members of their households. If selected, you will receive a home test kit for yourself, as well as for your family members if you agree for them being tested.

Excellent, these sorts of surveys are very important. They cannot give the same picture that antibody ones would, but they could still offer clues that could point in a similar direction.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Yes, totally. I'm not trying to defend the idea of businesses staying open, other than those that really are essential.

Oh, I know you weren't - I was querying it in my own mind as much as anything!
It's something else that needs to be urgently responded to and dealt with isn't it?

 

[scifisam]

well... I'm a little sus about how many businesses actually took that decision based purely on altruism. Plenty have said it's why they're closing, but in the vast majority of cases they'll also have experienced a catastrophic drop in business.

If a company is going through a severe downturn due to having to coronavirus, that sounds like a good reason to apply for the grant. Unless you meant something else, KillerB.

On testing, btw - I got this email today (from FluSurvey, who my daughter and I signed up with a couple of years ago) -

To better understand the spread of coronavirus and improve its response, we would like to invite you to take part in a self testing survey. We will randomly select a proportion of Flusurvey participants who agree to participate as well as members of their households. If selected, you will receive a home test kit for yourself, as well as for your family members if you agree for them being tested.

The test kit(s) will contain instructions of how to self swab and should be used as soon as possible whether or not you and/or your household members are feeling unwell. Please follow the instructions and return the swab in the reply-paid envelope supplied as quickly as possible. The tests can be posted back to Public Health England using the pre-stamped return envelope included in the kit.

Please note that not everyone who agrees to participate will receive a test and the purpose of this testing is to understand the spread of coronavirus in the community. The testing survey is not designed to be an individual testing service and we may not be able to give you the result of your test. If you would like to help Public Health England better fight the spread of coronavirus and you/your household members consent to being selected to receiving home test kits, please click the link below to take part.

Awesome! I mean swabs sent from home aren't going to be 100% reliable statistically, but they'll likely be reliable for you, and they'll be better than nothing as opposed to not testing and won't require people breaking lockdown to get tested by medical professionals who have other things to do.

It's probably not a bad way of getting some participants, too.

As long as it's definitely from the right website, obvs.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Excellent, these sorts of surveys are very important. They cannot give the same picture that antibody ones would, but they could still offer clues that could point in a similar direction.

I hope it follows that that means that testing will be absolutely thrown towards frontline workers and carers and vulnerable households etc, too (I know appropiate tests may differ there).

 

[killer b]

If a company is going through a severe downturn due to having to coronavirus, that sounds like a good reason to apply for the grant. Unless you meant something else, KillerB.

I was replying to Raheem posting that companies that closed for 'the safety of their staff' or whatever might not be eligible - I'm fairly sure most of them are.

 

[sheothebudworths]

If a company is going through a severe downturn due to having to coronavirus, that sounds like a good reason to apply for the grant. Unless you meant something else, KillerB.



Awesome! I mean swabs sent from home aren't going to be 100% reliable statistically, but they'll likely be reliable for you, and they'll be better than nothing as opposed to not testing and won't require people breaking lockdown to get tested by medical professionals who have other things to do.

It's probably not a bad way of getting some participants, too.

As long as it's definitely from the right website, obvs.

Oh, it's a safe site, afaik - just tracks flu - and I don't expect to get results back!

ETA - https://flusurvey.net/en/ (we signed up in Dec 2018 when they judged that we DID have actual flu, fwiw * take that work/school * )

 

[kebabking]

Yeah there were clues about that a week ago, although they were being deliberately vague then.

Military helicopters training over airport amid Covid-19 crisis

RAF pilots are on manoeuvres around the airport as part of plans to assist in transporting patients

www.birminghammail.co.uk

JHC have deployed three Puma medium lift helicopters to RAF Kinloss near Inverness in preparation for civil contingency ops, with a further deployment to RAF Leeming in North Yorkshire. an RAF Chinook heavy lift helicopter carried out a medivac from the Scilly isles, an RAF A400M did a medivac from Shetland to Aberdeen, and an RAF C-130J has conducted familiarisation landings at London City Airport - which just happens to be next to the Excel Centre NHS Nightingale...

(Incidentally, the Birmingham Mail decided to use a picture of a coastguard helicopter in their piece - different colour, different type, and with HM Coastguard written on it - but I'm sure that their journalism is to be trusted....).

 

[scifisam]

Oh, it's a safe site, afaik - just tracks flu - and I don't expect to get results back!

ETA - https://flusurvey.net/en/ (we signed up in Dec 2018 when they judged that we DID have actual flu, fwiw * take that work/school * )

Oh, that's interesting. If it's just testing for flu that might also be a good idea now too, to get a better idea of how widespread flu is compared to corona.

Though I wonder if one positive side-effect of all this might be temporary lower rates of flu. Plus other coronaviruses, but that would be harder to keep track of, since nearly everyone gets one now and then, and we don't test for them, and they probably won't die off even with really intense lockdowns.

 

[Petcha]

Hi, I'm in a slightly tricky situation and wondered if anyone could offer some advice.

My landlady/flatmate gave me notice a week or so before shit really hit the fan here and I found a new room pretty quickly. I'm not particularly keen on the new place but I paid my deposit and am due to move on Sunday. It's living with four other people and isn't huge whereas my current place is more spacious and it's just the two of us. So isolation is obviously easier.

The reason my landlady asked me to leave was because she wanted the room for a friend who was coming to stay from abroad, she's not coming now so she's said I can stay. Do you think I can get my deposit back?

This article sort of suggests I shouldn't move:

Can you still move house during the coronavirus lockdown?

Housing Secretary clarifies guidance for renters.

www.homesandproperty.co.uk

But I don't know about my legal footing as the new place was just a three month sublet and she's already got my deposit in her account. Sorry for the long post, got carried away! I think I'm going to stay where I am but I'd like to get my 300 quid back.

 

[keybored]

Hi, I'm in a slightly tricky situation and wondered if anyone could offer some advice.

My landlady/flatmate gave me notice a week or so before shit really hit the fan here and I found a new room pretty quickly. I'm not particularly keen on the new place but I paid my deposit and am due to move on Sunday. It's living with four other people and isn't huge whereas my current place is more spacious and it's just the two of us. So isolation is obviously easier.

The reason my landlady asked me to leave was because she wanted the room for a friend who was coming to stay from abroad, she's not coming now so she's said I can stay. Do you think I can get my deposit back?

This article sort of suggests I shouldn't move:

Can you still move house during the coronavirus lockdown?

Housing Secretary clarifies guidance for renters.

www.homesandproperty.co.uk

But I don't know about my legal footing as the new place was just a three month sublet and she's already got my deposit in her account. Sorry for the long post, got carried away! I think I'm going to stay where I am but I'd like to get my 300 quid back.

Tell your current landlady you'll stay if it helps her out, but she's going to have to knock £300 off the rent for messing you around and losing you your deposit. Otherwise you'll just move and she will get nothing as she won't be renting that room out to anyone for a while.

 

[Azrael]

A lot of it is the orthodox approach shining through again. In many ways this comes down to the long-term UK medical establishment approach towards testing in general, as well as testing at different stages of epidemics, pandemics and observing the seasonal Influenza-like-illness picture every year.

Theres no emphasis on, expectation of or capacity for mass testing. Instead they go for various surveillance systems, testing a small subset of people within communities and extrapolating the wider picture. Vigorous testing of every possible case is normally reserved for the very early phase only, where limited numbers apply and there is specific data they are trying to obtain. Later testing goes back to the sample-based approach, with some exceptions along certain lines, including some clinical need ones.

I believe that related orthodox thinking also shows up in some other healthcare phenomenon in this country. There are a bunch of common conditions that GPs dont seem terribly interested in testing for upon initial presentation, and from what I've experienced it seems the first approach is usually to have a look at the patient and pick the thing it is most likely to be, rather than testing to see what it actually is. A different sort of numbers game, one where you deal with the most common possibility without much fuss or testing resources. But where some of your patients will end up with the wrong treatment and some frustrating follow-ups and lost time trying to get far enough along the path of possibilities to actually stumble on the right cause, or if all else fails then very well, finally test. And I'm sure many people who have dealt with the passing of a frail relative might have experienced the cause of death being recorded in terms of a combination of their existing health conditions, and something like pneumonia. Perhaps some pathogens that actually caused the pneumonia were formally ruled in or out by testing, perhaps not. The pathogens actually responsible certainly cant be relied upon to always make it onto the official cause of death of that person.

Obviously there are areas of exception to what I've said about testing and routine healthcare. Some pathogens and diseases and patient conditions evoke a very different approach. I'm sure there are some areas that have just the sort of testing protocols we would ideally like to see universally. That they are missing from this pandemic so far in the UK is bad but sadly not surprising.

To compensate for the fact that the system wont properly identify and record every case of everything, the data from cases they did directly detect and data from sampling/surveillance schemes tends to be combined with the excess mortality statistics, in order to estimate the number of deaths that a particular epidemic has caused.

So yeah, thats my opinion of the nature of some relevant parts of the orthodoxy. Mostly the same themes I've gone on about before. And plenty of areas where we can clearly see the ugly and awkward contrast between how they are used to conducting these matters, and what this pandemic calls for.

In this particular context, given their testing capacity limits right now, they could at least publish a separate 'suspected deaths' or 'possible community deaths' figure.

Thanks for that, illustrates that the roots of Britain's disastrous response go far deeper than regulator capture by Cummings and his weirdos (run, Cummings, run, Cummings, run, run, run).

Orthodoxy in every sense, now being given the weight of religious dogma, despite being based on modelling for a different disease, and being contradicted by a spreading mountain of clinical data. Science isn't meant to have orthodoxies, just hypotheses and paradigms that shift according to new evidence, and this is why.

There's some reckoning ahead.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Hi, I'm in a slightly tricky situation and wondered if anyone could offer some advice.

My landlady/flatmate gave me notice a week or so before shit really hit the fan here and I found a new room pretty quickly. I'm not particularly keen on the new place but I paid my deposit and am due to move on Sunday. It's living with four other people and isn't huge whereas my current place is more spacious and it's just the two of us. So isolation is obviously easier.

The reason my landlady asked me to leave was because she wanted the room for a friend who was coming to stay from abroad, she's not coming now so she's said I can stay. Do you think I can get my deposit back?

This article sort of suggests I shouldn't move:

Can you still move house during the coronavirus lockdown?

Housing Secretary clarifies guidance for renters.

www.homesandproperty.co.uk

But I don't know about my legal footing as the new place was just a three month sublet and she's already got my deposit in her account. Sorry for the long post, got carried away! I think I'm going to stay where I am but I'd like to get my 300 quid back.

The advice from your post that looks most relevant is -

Mr Jenrick advises: “If moving is unavoidable because you’re contracted and the parties aren’t able to agree a delay, you must follow advice on social distancing when moving.”

David Cox, chief executive at ARLA Propertymark, the letting agents’ industry regulatory body, says house moves should be put on hold for now to adhere to government guidance that people should stay home.

He said: “We are asking tenants to stay put for the duration of this period, continue paying rent, and to seek government assistance if they’re struggling with their rent costs.”

Housing charity Shelter says tenants should negotiate with both their old and new landlords over their start and end dates. The current tenancy would then usually continue as a periodic tenancy – rolling on a monthly basis – rather than a fixed-term contract.

So I reckon you quote all of that to the new one, at the very least - that you must adhere to the regs and will need your deposit back to pay the rent where you are now?
It's something else that's not clear (am wondering if housing benefit would cover it otherwise for eg, if you do still have to commit to moving later, in theory, due to the contract but while you're also down £300 on a deposit for a room you're supposed to be moving into now). I'm making this up as I go along, tbf - but I'd say it's worth calling them in case.

Was your current landlady allowed to give a weeks notice, btw?!

 

[sheothebudworths]

Tell your current landlady you'll stay if it helps her out, but she's going to have to knock £300 off the rent for messing you around and losing you your deposit. Otherwise you'll just move and she will get nothing as she won't be renting that room out to anyone for a while.

I always choose the more complicated route

 

[elbows]

Oh, that's interesting. If it's just testing for flu that might also be a good idea now too, to get a better idea of how widespread flu is compared to corona.

Though I wonder if one positive side-effect of all this might be temporary lower rates of flu. Plus other coronaviruses, but that would be harder to keep track of, since nearly everyone gets one now and then, and we don't test for them, and they probably won't die off even with really intense lockdowns.

No, it is a test for coronavirus, not the flu. Probably some confusion because of the name of the site and what their usual activities involve.

The main UK influenza season was very early this year so its too late to spot dramatic effect of lockdowns on that. Australia and some other countries will head into winter in the coming months so depending on timing of lockdowns we might yet get to see a dramatic effect on other illnesses there.

 

[keybored]

I always choose the more complicated route

I was thinking mine might be a bit overly simplistic, but if Petcha can combine the two approaches, get their deposit back and get a £300 rent holiday, that's a good outcome.

 

[Petcha]

Was your current landlady allowed to give a weeks notice, btw?!

No, she gave me three weeks, I just moved really quickly on gettin a new flat as I was worried about the apocalypse. Happy ending though, I messaged the girl I was gonna sublet from and she's going to refund me. I feel fucking terrible as the reason she was subletting it for three months was because she was going for a cancer operation in Poland. And now she's gonna really struggle to find a replacement.... This fucking virus.

 

[killer b]

Happy ending though, I messaged the girl I was gonna sublet from and she's going to refund me.

your landlady doesn't need to know this, mind.

 

[ddraig]

One thing that's puzziling me is why on the news last night did they say there may be less than 20,000 (a lot still of course) deaths in the uk now?
Obviously this doesn't seem possible compared to other countries and the escalating death rate here as well as these new mega morgues being built
Why give that false hope on the 10 o clock news??

 

[Petcha]

your landlady doesn't need to know this, mind.

Oops! I already told her. I'm not that smart. They're both nice people though.

 

[weltweit]

Oops! I already told her. I'm not that smart. They're both nice people though.

As it seems are you also

 

[sheothebudworths]

Oh, that's interesting. If it's just testing for flu that might also be a good idea now too, to get a better idea of how widespread flu is compared to corona.

Though I wonder if one positive side-effect of all this might be temporary lower rates of flu. Plus other coronaviruses, but that would be harder to keep track of, since nearly everyone gets one now and then, and we don't test for them, and they probably won't die off even with really intense lockdowns.

Sorry, tbc, it's a site that DID track flu like illnesses but looks now to be tracking covid illnesses alongside that, with some testing.
Gave the link earlier but will do it again - we joined up solely out of interest when we were last ill (cos we were ill) but it's actually way more relevant that I would've realised even at the time and is defo worth signing up to because it is a site that logs and tracks spread so you complete the surveys whether you have symptoms or not (I didn't even take it in until today that it's a PHE survey, alongside the London school of hygiene and tropical medicine - I recognised the latter but not PHE when we signed up originally). Look like a really useful tool now, tbf.

https://flusurvey.net/en/

 

[campanula]

So, realistically, it simply relies on your employer giving a shit to begin with (hollow laugh) - it doesn't protect jobs and it definitely doesn't protect people's health and/or the strain on the NHS.
So it needs enforcing, to work?

Exactly so. The firm my son works for made £24,000 in ONE NIGHT, selling Swarfega...so yep, they want to stay open. They are claiming to be 'a vital supply line for the NHS (they are a fucking hardware and toolshop). They have an online presence and warehouse...but nope, they still want counter customers! I fucking hope there will be public naming and shaming - my son would be grateful for 80% of payroll and a healthy living partner...not all his (measly) wages so his boss can continue to rake in more!
So yeah, it looks like we are going to have to fall back on the goodwill and public spiritedness of the capitalist class

CUNTS

 

[sheothebudworths]

No, she gave me three weeks, I just moved really quickly on gettin a new flat as I was worried about the apocalypse. Happy ending though, I messaged the girl I was gonna sublet from and she's going to refund me. I feel fucking terrible as the reason she was subletting it for three months was because she was going for a cancer operation in Poland. And now she's gonna really struggle to find a replacement.... This fucking virus.

Maybe she would be due some housing benefit/council tax ben? You could suggest she looks into it and we could try and help find out more info (as/when we get it) if she struggles and/or can give you more info?

 

[scifisam]

It's here scifisam -

Guidance on shielding and protecting people defined on medical grounds as extremely vulnerable from COVID-19 - so if you haven't received the letter by Sunday (not sure if that means they're delivering on Sundays, or that it hasn't come with Saturday's post). then discuss with your GP or hospital clinician.

ETA - and you can then go through the application to get assistance with food and med deliveries, too (in actual fact, that says 'If you’re not sure whether your medical condition makes you extremely vulnerable, register anyway. ' so you could do that now) -

COVID-19: guidance for people whose immune system means they are at higher risk

Guidance for people aged 12 and over whose immune system means they are at higher risk of serious illness if they become infected with COVID-19.

www.gov.uk

Sorry, didn't see this when you originally posted it. I've already registered.

It's an interesting list and makes a lot of sense - it's quite limited. Like saying that not all pregnant women are extra vulnerable for example, only a small subset of them. Obviously all pregnant women are going to be extra worried, and they'd benefit from not taking any extra risks that would cause other issues that might lead to them being in hospital, and their employers should prioritise them for working at home. But they don't have to be on complete lockdown for twelve weeks just because they're pregnant.

I'm still in two of the categories though, and my friend isn't in any of them. So it's weird.

I've not heard anyone say anything about the child, but a week ago, when we were forced to go to work, a few people on my office said I hope Boris dies during childbirth. At first I was like what did you just say? but then I thought yeah, ok, I can understand that line of reasoning.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Sorry, didn't see this when you originally posted it. I've already registered.

It's an interesting list and makes a lot of sense - it's quite limited. Like saying that not all pregnant women are extra vulnerable for example, only a small subset of them. Obviously all pregnant women are going to be extra worried, and they'd benefit from not taking any extra risks that would cause other issues that might lead to them being in hospital, and their employers should prioritise them for working at home. But they don't have to be on complete lockdown for twelve weeks just because they're pregnant.

I'm still in two of the categories though, and my friend isn't in any of them. So it's weird.

That advice is definitely changing faster that they can send letters out (you're right that it was ALL pregnant women a week or so ago), so letters are also going to go to people who shouldn't get them, too, by the sounds of it.
Neither of those is preferable is it, not getting one when you should, or getting one when you shouldn't - when there was time to prepare for this.

 

[tommers]

Fair play to him. Quickly become a central part of our daily routine and now donating all his takings to the NHS.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Exactly so. The firm my son works for made £24,000 in ONE NIGHT, selling Swarfega...so yep, they want to stay open. They are claiming to be 'a vital supply line for the NHS (they are a fucking hardware and toolshop). They have an online presence and warehouse...but nope, they still want counter customers! I fucking hope there will be public naming and shaming - my son would be grateful for 80% of payroll and a healthy living partner...not all his (measly) wages so his boss can continue to rake in more!
So yeah, it looks like we are going to have to fall back on the goodwill and public spiritedness of the capitalist class

CUNTS

Fucking hell! DO they supply the NHS or is it blatant profiteering (I can well imagine the general public buying all sorts, atm)?

 

[farmerbarleymow]

The Great Escape

Oh where is that righteous bolt of lightning?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Re gloves, think of it like wet paint. You go out to the shop and basically everything you touch could've had other people touching it, breathing on it, (hopefully not, but potentially) coughing/sneezing on it... You go out to the shop and loads of stuff is covered in paint. You put gloves on and they get covered in paint. You transfer paint to your shopping, your phone, your wallet and keys, everything you touch while you're out. You take the gloves off and wash your hands as you get home. Then you empty your pockets, unpack your shopping etc. It's still covered in paint. Now there's paint on your hands and whatever else you touched too. You give your nose a scratch, because you washed your hands when you came in so it's safe to do that. There's paint in your nostril now. Etc.

Obvs not saying all of these surfaces will be covered in virus and it'll survive long enough there to be a risk, but not taking notice of what you're touching because you're wearing gloves and gloves=safe is a massive risk too. People do it all the time, to the extent that some guidance (for food safety that I remember reading, but expect also for some healthcare/other contexts too) explicitly advises against the use of disposable gloves for the reason that they can encourage complacency around other hygiene measures.

(Also potential issues of fucking up your skin by wearing gloves for long periods of time; contamination though resuse of gloves, not putting them on / taking off correctly or not washing hands properly both before and after; waste of resources in need elsewhere...)

Unless you actually have open & uncovered wounds on your hands or something, washing them is just as good as wearing gloves.

May I share these words locally?

 

[Aladdin]

Full lockdown announced in Ireland.
No travel further than 2 km from your home. Can go out for food shopping, medical needs and to help a vulnerable person or family member. Everyone's to stay at home and not visit anyone apart from vulnerable family member who may need help.
Travel is for work only and only for essential key workers.

This ... up to 12th April.