Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[IC3D]

Currently enduring this shit and my belief in this ending soon is 0%

 

[Pickman's model]

Currently enduring this shit and my belief in this ending soon is 0%

Ever the optimist

 

[Sue]

Depends on the existing contract, assuming they even have proper contracts and aren't regarded as self employed

On a practical level, it's going to be many months before vaccines are made available to those not either older or with medical conditions.

I don't imagine Pimlico Plumbers are going to refuse to take on any work in the meantime

There was a case recently, wasn't there, about whether they were self-employed or employees? Can't remember what the outcome was but IIRC it was about them trying to weasel out of paying sick and holiday pay etc. The usual nonsense really.

 

[andysays]

There was a case recently, wasn't there, about whether they were self-employed or employees? Can't remember what the outcome was but IIRC it was about them trying to weasel out of paying sick and holiday pay etc. The usual nonsense really.

I don't specifically remember that but it wouldn't surprise me.

As you say, the usual nonsense

 

[Cid]

I've developed a fever yesterday and my child was at nursery. I'm not sure how I'd get her home if I was single.
As it is Chemistry left work early and got her - and he'd had a lateral flow test (negative) that morning.

Lateral flow tests are kind of crap. I mean they're useful, but they shouldn't really tell an individual anything. If they say you're positive, 99% you are. But a negative result doesn't really tell you anything. I get the impression their use needs a major review.

Covid-19: government must urgently rethink lateral flow test roll out - The BMJ

Plans to widen roll out risk serious harm No one questions the need for evidence based approaches to covid 19 treatments and vaccines. Why then is this principle ignored for [...]More...

blogs.bmj.com

(which is to say chemistry should isolate until you have pcr result. And also obviously best wishes etc)

 

[platinumsage]

Lateral flow tests are kind of crap. I mean they're useful, but they shouldn't really tell an individual anything. If they say you're positive, 99% you are. But a negative result doesn't really tell you anything. I get the impression their use needs a major review.

Covid-19: government must urgently rethink lateral flow test roll out - The BMJ

Plans to widen roll out risk serious harm No one questions the need for evidence based approaches to covid 19 treatments and vaccines. Why then is this principle ignored for [...]More...

blogs.bmj.com

This only applies to that specific Innova lateral flow test.

The government bought 2 million of these lateral flow tests last week which are 98% accurate (although they require a blood sample taken by a clinician, they will be useful in many settings as they give a result in 10 minutes).

 

[IC3D]

Ever the optimist

Apparently share the same rosy outlook as tube drivers. Guess we can't see the light at the end of the tunnel

 

[Artaxerxes]

I'm unconvinced bosses pressurising covid+ employees to come into work is that much of a thing tbh. Certainly not enough of a thing to impact on the self isolation figures reported above. Employees with no sick pay needing to put dinner on the table is much more significant.

Nah, we have a culture of penalising workers who are genuinely sick, whether thats with bosses tutting at them and penalising them or the slavish devotion to the HR algorithm saying they are swinging the leg.

 

[Cid]

This only applies to that specific Innova lateral flow test.

The government bought 2 million of these lateral flow tests last week which are 98% accurate (although they require a blood sample taken by a clinician, they will be useful in many settings as they give a result in 10 minutes).

Perhaps, but it's probably not relevant to wtfftw 's case. And there doesn't seem to be a lot of info on it at present.

 

[wtfftw]

Lateral flow tests are kind of crap. I mean they're useful, but they shouldn't really tell an individual anything. If they say you're positive, 99% you are. But a negative result doesn't really tell you anything. I get the impression their use needs a major review.

Covid-19: government must urgently rethink lateral flow test roll out - The BMJ

Plans to widen roll out risk serious harm No one questions the need for evidence based approaches to covid 19 treatments and vaccines. Why then is this principle ignored for [...]More...

blogs.bmj.com

(which is to say chemistry should isolate until you have pcr result. And also obviously best wishes etc)

Yup. I pointed him at that.

We are household isolating. It's not quite 4 months since we were last ill and not the same so I'm hopeful.

 

[platinumsage]

Perhaps, but it's probably not relevant to wtfftw 's case.

There's no perhaps about it - your assertion that lateral flow tests are crap is plainly wrong. You don't even know which test was taken in wtfftw's case - there are three approved tests in addition to the Innova one.

 

[Sue]

I don't specifically remember that but it wouldn't surprise me.

As you say, the usual nonsense

'A heating engineer who won a claim against Pimlico Plumbers at the supreme court, establishing he was a worker and not self-employed, has lost his bid to claim £74,000 in holiday pay as a result.

An employment tribunal in Croydon ruled on Wednesday that Gary Smith, from Kent, who worked at the firm for six years until 2011, had not filed his holiday pay claim quickly enough.'

---snip---

'Charlie Mullins, the chief executive of Pimlico Plumbers, said: “While the supreme court deemed him to be a ‘worker’ and entitled to associated rights, the tables have been turned and common sense prevailed in the actual employment tribunal and Mr Smith has been told that he wasn’t entitled to a penny.”

He said the ruling “sends a message to those who have taken advantage of this case to peddle their poisonous bile about my company”.

The company said it was considering reclaiming its tribunal costs from Smith.'

Gig economy: worker loses Pimlico Plumbers holiday pay claim

Man who won earlier workers’ rights case against firm is not entitled to £74,000, court rules

www.theguardian.com

 

[2hats]

Some (quite) good news...though with many caveats:

Recovering from Covid gives similar level of protection to vaccine

PHE found immunity from earlier infection provided 83% protection against reinfection for at least 20 weeks

www.theguardian.com

That article is referencing interim results of the SIREN study.

The key take away items from that study (thus far) are:

1. Naturally acquired immunity appears to provide up to 83% protection against reinfection (ie is not universal).
2. Naturally acquired immunity appears to last for at least 5 months (*).
3. Persons with naturally acquired immunity still carry high levels of virus and could continue to transmit the virus to others. This is currently being investigated further.
4. This study was conducted prior to the emergence of VOC 202012/01 and further work is underway to determine the impact that may have, if any, on these results and conclusions.

So (particularly in light of point 3) all persons previously infected, like all the vaccinated, still need to practice social distancing and mask up, as if they are infected and those around them are all infectious.

* Other studies have determined that some degree of naturally acquired immunity can last for some people for up to 8 months.

e2a: preprint with details can be found here.

 

[Cid]

There's no perhaps about it - your assertion that lateral flow tests are crap is plainly wrong. You don't even know which test was taken in wtfftw's case - there are three approved tests in addition to the Innova one.

Fuck me, do you want people to do a full break down of the current and prospective test regime in every post? Only to conclude with ‘it’s probably safest to assume it’s the innova one and wait for pcr’?

The criticism in the BMJ is on the current roll out of lateral flow testing. That’s what is relevant.

 

[Cloo]

Also from Sky I found these stats interesting:



In particular that there's a fairly similar degree of following the rules (pretty good in general) on meeting indoors or outdoors. I would have thought a lot more people would be prepared to meet people outside than inside, but the numbers are very similar. Suggests maybe still a poor understanding of aerosol risk? I'll admit, we have done meeting our parents in their gardens recently (accessible from street) as this seems low risk - we stay more like 4m apart and TBH it's so fucking cold 10-20 mins is the max we can all cope with anyway. But we haven't been inside anyone's house or had anyone in ours socially since some time in September.

 

[quimcunx]

My mate's a plumber, he's really pissed off at his customers who, he says, mostly don't wear masks when he's working in their houses as they seem to take the attitude that it's their house and so their rules.

Whereas my boiler engineer turned up early with no mask. I shut him in the kitchen while I went elsewhere but he came out twice and didnt shut the door afterwards.

 

[teuchter]

Also from Sky I found these stats interesting:



In particular that there's a fairly similar degree of following the rules (pretty good in general) on meeting indoors or outdoors. I would have thought a lot more people would be prepared to meet people outside than inside, but the numbers are very similar. Suggests maybe still a poor understanding of aerosol risk? I'll admit, we have done meeting our parents in their gardens recently (accessible from street) as this seems low risk - we stay more like 4m apart and TBH it's so fucking cold 10-20 mins is the max we can all cope with anyway. But we haven't been inside anyone's house or had anyone in ours socially since some time in September.

I don't think it means that similar numbers of people are doing indoor and outdoor meetings. It means that similar numbers of people are following the rules (for each scenario) in each case. So there might be 10 people doing outdoor meetings and 2 people doing indoor meetings, and in each case, most of the people are following the rules that apply to the type of meeting they are doing.

 

[two sheds]

Whereas my boiler engineer turned up early with no mask. I shut him in the kitchen while I went elsewhere but he came out twice and didnt shut the door afterwards.

Only time I've had someone round was the chimney sweep. I asked him to put a mask on because I'm classed as vulnerable and he said 'well only makes sense if we both do' and I agreed and we both masked up happily

Next time I'll mask up first and ask whether he could too.

 

[gentlegreen]

Since I live alone and only go out to get food, I don't pay attention to government bullshit, and now I find that even if the sun came out and I could get off my arse and onto my bike, I wouldn't technically be allowed to cycle 10 or 20 miles on the local railway path
And apparently I should only walk 1 mile around the park once a week ?

This may motivate me to become a dangerous lawbreaker and get fit in the process ...

 

[Cloo]

I don't think it means that similar numbers of people are doing indoor and outdoor meetings. It means that similar numbers of people are following the rules (for each scenario) in each case. So there might be 10 people doing outdoor meetings and 2 people doing indoor meetings, and in each case, most of the people are following the rules that apply to the type of meeting they are doing.

This is why I'm not a statistician

 

[zora]

So another friend, partner and child have just got covid, brought home from nursery by the toddler. Another friend on our group chat said she'd been hearing today on several other groups of people testing positive, where nursery has been the only obvious outside world contact.
I am sure it will be a great relief for the affected families and staff that there is " 'very little' virus risk in nurseries" (article from last week).

Covid-19: 'Very little' virus risk at nurseries, says vaccine minister

The vaccine minister defends the decision to keep nurseries open, as unions call for a shutdown.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Hyperdark]

So another friend, partner and child have just got covid, brought home from nursery by the toddler. Another friend on our group chat said she'd been hearing today on several other groups of people testing positive, where nursery has been the only obvious outside world contact.
I am sure it will be a great relief for the affected families and staff that there is " 'very little' virus risk in nurseries" (article from last week).

Covid-19: 'Very little' virus risk at nurseries, says vaccine minister

The vaccine minister defends the decision to keep nurseries open, as unions call for a shutdown.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think sometimes people put blame where they want it to be

 

[LDC]

Since I live alone and only go out to get food, I don't pay attention to government bullshit, and now I find that even if the sun came out and I could get off my arse and onto my bike, I wouldn't technically be allowed to cycle 10 or 20 miles on the local railway path
And apparently I should only walk 1 mile around the park once a week ?

This may motivate me to become a dangerous lawbreaker and get fit in the process ...

Where are you getting the 1 mile once a week from gentlegreen ?

 

[gentlegreen]

Where are you getting the 1 mile once a week from gentlegreen ?

well it's "stay in your area" once a week - and that would be a short bike ride ...
To be fair, if the paths are crawling with furloughed office macho men, I will probably give it a miss in any case ...

 

[LDC]

well it's "stay in your area" once a week - and that would be a short bike ride ...
To be fair, if the paths are crawling with furloughed office macho men, I will probably give it a miss in any case ...

I've not seen anything that says once a week, where did you get that from? Nor the only walking a mile you also mentioned.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I think sometimes people put blame where they want it to be

Do you think nurseries are magically different from schools as a vector to spread the virus between households?

 

[gentlegreen]

I've not seen anything that says once a week, where did you get that from? Nor the only walking a mile you also mentioned.

OK so perhaps it's a walk through the park once a day ...

"exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person, this should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area. "

But me doing regular 20 mile rides is out of the question

 

[maomao]

But me doing regular 20 mile rides is out of the question

Do laps of the block.

 

[killer b]

OK so perhaps it's a walk through the park once a day ...

"exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person, this should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area. "

But me doing regular 20 mile rides is out of the question

You can do as many daily 20 mile bike rides as you like, literally no-one is going to stop you or care. Or would you prefer the rules were laxer or more complicated?

 

[Artaxerxes]

You can do your 20 mile rides but if that once in a blue moon accident or breakdown occurs you better be sure you know how to minimise contact because you’ve just potentially exposed the ambulance crew or breakdown or cabbies or even yourself without needing to.


You can have fun, just do it sensibly and nearer home than usual