Class consciousness

[In Bloom]

Does anarcho-syndicalism inevitably lead to collaborating with the bourgeoisie, and the government? I personally don't think so.

The same applies to Bolshevism. We are discussing how parties/groups agitate, lead, organise and persuade the working class: not what their actions were after 4 years of civil war, economic ruin, decomposition of the working class, a hostile peasantry, mistakes by the leadership, fusion of party-state etc etc...



Of course not. But we are discussing how workers become revolutionary, not what parties do once in power.

You can't just separate out how the Bolsheviks were organised before 1917 and their actions after 1917, the two are inherently linked. The Bolsheviks were a party which focused power in the hands of a few individuals as a matter of tactics, both before and after 1917. This is, I think, the biggest problem with Leninism. It puts too much trust in the party leadership, who are just as prone to abuse of power as any other human beings.

 

[mk12]

Do you think the Lenin of State & Revolution was the same man in 1921?

 

[gurrier]

Do you think the Lenin of State & Revolution was the same man in 1921?

Do you think that every politician becomes an entirely new man once he is elected, compared to his campaign promises? Or is it just telling people what they want to hear?

 

[mk12]

I'd say the circumstances Lenin found himself in in 1921 was remarkably different to those in 1917.

 

[gurrier]

I'd say the circumstances Lenin found himself in in 1921 was remarkably different to those in 1917.

Yep and Tony Blair / David Blunkett / Jack Straw circumstances in 2003 were remarkably different to what they were in 1996.

 

[mk12]

The period 1996-2003 wasn't quite the same as Russia 1917-21 was it?

 

[Fruitloop]

finally something we can all agree on

 

[gurrier]

The period 1996-2003 wasn't quite the same as Russia 1917-21 was it?

Nope, but some things don't change. Politicians say different things in the periods when they want power and need popular support to attain it compared with what they actually do once they have power.

 

[mk12]

Ok then.