Class consciousness

[General Ludd]

I do post stuff up discussing ideas

Anything you do post up that is interesting is drowned in a sea of abuse, your signal to noise ratio is about as bad as it could possibly be. Your contributions to a thread almost never include the possibility of someone learning anything from your posts, except maybe to learn to ignore you. If this a result of you being bored of these topics then it's time you stopped posting on threads about them, and instead spend your time either posting on topics that don't bore you, or even not posting anywhere at all.

This appears to be pretty much a universal opinion among those whose politics are similar to yours. Perhaps there's a personal lesson there, no?

 

[Fruitloop]

I like this essay here:

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/ollman/docs/class_consciousness.php

What's the general opinion on Bertell Ollman, if there is one?

 

[revol68]

Anything you do post up that is interesting is drowned in a sea of abuse, your signal to noise ratio is about as bad as it could possibly be. Your contributions to a thread almost never include the possibility of someone learning anything from your posts, except maybe to learn to ignore you. If this a result of you being bored of these topics then it's time you stopped posting on threads about them, and instead spend your time either posting on topics that don't bore you, or even not posting anywhere at all.

This appears to be pretty much a universal opinion among those whose politics are similar to yours. Perhaps there's a personal lesson there, no?

and you are?

and as for my posts well perhaps it's cause I really couldn't care much about trying to convince anyone of anything.

Perhaps I don't see the internet or my presence on it as anything more than a bit of entertainment to pass the time.

And honestly why would i want anyone to learn from my posts, what the fuck is this leftist obsession that people will learn from you.

It's just pure wank, I mean I've never learnt anything from anyone over the net (anything substantial anyway).

I just post on here what I feel about something at the time, so if i'm a bit arsey with someone it's just how i'm feeling.

Maybe others are worried about bad impressions but i'm not, I couldn't give a fuck how much my behaviour alienates people, anyone who would be alienated from class struggle cos I'm a tad tart isn't worth shit anyway.

 

[sovietpop]

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones mr pot.

 

[revol68]

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones mr pot.

to whom does this concern?

 

[General Ludd]

I mean I've never learnt anything from anyone over the net (anything substantial anyway).

Which is a product of how you post. I have learnt huge amounts from debates I've had online, and continue to do so.

 

[revol68]

Which is a product of how you post. I have learnt huge amounts from debates I've had online, and continue to do so.

what, so cos I post how I actually feel about something as opposed to pretending it's some sort of Development Workshop.

Who really cares? Have you read the shit that gets posted on these threads?

Wankers bigging up the IRA, Nepalese Maoists, Chavez and then arseholes like Montevideo and RednBlack claiming that you can't criticise any action undertook by the "working class".

You seriously wonder why I lose patience and just vent.

I mean in real life I'm quite calm, if someone is genuinely interested I'll explain and understand where they are coming from. But on here I'm mostly arguing with dipshits who have already made up their minds, they just repeat slogans. They are pathetic politicos who churn out balls after balls all the while feeling smug that they are somewhat "different" from the masses. Look at Montevideo, the guy hasn't a fucking clue, one minute he's ultra left, the next he's sucking arse off Union Officials to be a professional activist.

 

[oisleep]

and you are?

and as for my posts well perhaps it's cause I really couldn't care much about trying to convince anyone of anything.

Perhaps I don't see the internet or my presence on it as anything more than a bit of entertainment to pass the time.

And honestly why would i want anyone to learn from my posts, what the fuck is this leftist obsession that people will learn from you.

It's just pure wank, I mean I've never learnt anything from anyone over the net (anything substantial anyway).

I just post on here what I feel about something at the time, so if i'm a bit arsey with someone it's just how i'm feeling.

Maybe others are worried about bad impressions but i'm not, I couldn't give a fuck how much my behaviour alienates people, anyone who would be alienated from class struggle cos I'm a tad tart isn't worth shit anyway.

 

[bluestreak]

i thought that the reason we needed a revolutionary organisation was just so your lot - the swp &c - didn't win.

which, i guess is where the revolutionary / anti-capitalist movement falls down - too many ideas, too man arguments. as a whole there may be enough of us, but we're split into so many different groups.

 

[revol68]

tres bien fuckface but atleast I'm half pished you've no excuse for your inability to make cogent points.

 

[bluestreak]

Well put

agreed.

 

[oisleep]

tres bien fuckface but atleast I'm half pished you've no excuse for your inability to make cogent points.

 

[revol68]

so lets back to the origional point.

You think I was out of order for being short with Mattkidd, I contest that it was perfectly justifiable considering he's a suppoused Marxist and member of an apparently revolutionary party.

If it had been someone who wasn't I would have given the benefit of the doubt.

Of course most other people wouldn't be socialists and ask such questions, for most other people it would be a matter of whether it was desirable for the working class to achieve "class consciousness", not whether this should come from the pissed off youth of the middle class.

So go for it, you can have the argument with Mattkidd cos I've had enough experiance with trots to know it gets nowhere.

 

[oisleep]

you bleet on about how bad trot's are but then when one behaves different to what you expect or looks outwith of their current enforced dogma you push them back into your neat & tidy definition box of them

your logic dictates that the only person you'd debate on left leaning/ progressive/ anarchist/communist internet sites is with yourself, because everyone else is just so dam wrong

 

[revol68]

you bleet on about how bad trot's are but then when one behaves different to what you expect or looks outwith of their current enforced dogma you push them back into your neat & tidy definition box of them

your logic dictates that the only person you'd debate on left leaning/ progressive/ anarchist/communist internet sites is with yourself, because everyone else is just so dam wrong

no the simple fact is that I would expect most trots to have the wit to camoflague their elitism.

Honestly, if you think there's anything to be gained from it you can give him a list of examples of how the working class develops communism within itself.

Go for it.

 

[oisleep]

i refer you to post 55

 

[revol68]

i refer you to post 55

i know and I'm saying you go for it and I'll shut up.

Fair enough?

 

[montevideo]

Look at Montevideo, the guy hasn't a fucking clue, one minute he's ultra left, the next he's sucking arse off Union Officials to be a professional activist.

as opposed to getting paid to play computer games perhaps?

 

[revol68]

as opposed to getting paid to play computer games perhaps?

Are you so fucking thick as to not see a clash of interests between being a union fulltimer and the workers your suppoused to be organising. I mean it would be fair enough if you realised the tension but since you insist of taking some sort of moral high ground from your job (as opposed to mine which doesn't involve the mediation of me and my colleagues struggles) I'll feel free to poke fun at your political inconsistencies.

 

[oisleep]

i know and I'm saying you go for it and I'll shut up.

Fair enough?

me "going for it" and you shutting up are not mutually exclusive, why do you attach conditions to your shutting up?

 

[revol68]

me "going for it" and you shutting up are not mutually exclusive, why do you attach conditions to your shutting up?

cos I reckon Mattkidd isn't going to give two fucks no matter how many examples of working class self organisation you posit. You think I'm wrong and more importantly being a cunt. So i'm saying go for it, try and convince an SWP hack otherwise and i'll stand politely back and applaud.

Otherwise shut the fuck up about my slightly curt response.

 

[oisleep]

well that's you all over eh, no point in having the debate because magically you know the outcome already

whilst in certain circumstances relating to swappies i'd say that was true, unlike you though i'd judge each one on their own merits and i think most people here would agree that mattkid is one of the more aware/less pigeon holed swappies from here, so ergo most would engage in any attempt to debate with him and would consider the outcome after that debate had happened

 

[revol68]

well that's you all over eh, no point in having the debate because magically you know the outcome already

whilst in certain circumstances relating to swappies i'd say that was true, unlike you though i'd judge each one on their own merits and i think most people here would agree that mattkid is one of the more aware/less pigeon holed swappies from here, so ergo most would engage in any attempt to debate with him and would consider the outcome after that debate had happened

well as i said go for it instead of wasting your tip tap typing finger strokes on me.

 

[oisleep]

and as i said there not mutually exclusive

 

[mk12]

What's more, I think that this particular line of pushing leninism - "but we're just like the anarchists really" is particularly pathetic and shows an abject lack of confidence in your own politics.

I haven't tried to push anything on here. Where I have asked a question, it is an honest question. I am genuinely interested in the anarchist view of consciousness, compared to the leninist view.

I remember reading Makhno's organisational platform thing, which seems to call for a vanguard anarchist party/group. I did see a lot of similarities between this group, and Leninist theory. Would that be fair to say? Or am I missing something?

REBEL_WARRIOR: Lenin's 'patiently explaining', which was emphasied a lot in Cliff's biography: is that different to leading the workers? Or simply agitating amongst them, like a propaganda group?

 

[gurrier]

I remember reading Makhno's organisational platform thing, which seems to call for a vanguard anarchist party/group. I did see a lot of similarities between this group, and Leninist theory. Would that be fair to say? Or am I missing something?

Once again: "our only power is persuasion" - which very clearly distinguishes Leninists from anarchists of all stripes.

 

[mk12]

The Bolsheviks persuaded pre-October. That is what Leninists today aim to do. Persuade others of their own ideas.

 

[In Bloom]

Or to quote, er, Lenin in 1917 - the task of revolutionary socialists in a revolutionary situation was to 'patiently explain' to the rest of the class the case for revolution...

Red Army troops 'patiently explain' their position to a group of recalcitrant sailors

 

[In Bloom]

The Bolsheviks persuaded pre-October. That is what Leninists today aim to do. Persuade others of their own ideas.

And everything that the Bolsheviks did during and after the October coup is irrelevant?

 

[mk12]

Red Army troops 'patiently explain' their position to a group of recalcitrant sailors

Does anarcho-syndicalism inevitably lead to collaborating with the bourgeoisie, and the government? I personally don't think so.

The same applies to Bolshevism. We are discussing how parties/groups agitate, lead, organise and persuade the working class: not what their actions were after 4 years of civil war, economic ruin, decomposition of the working class, a hostile peasantry, mistakes by the leadership, fusion of party-state etc etc...

And everything that the Bolsheviks did during and after the October coup is irrelevant?

Of course not. But we are discussing how workers become revolutionary, not what parties do once in power.