Chilcot Iraq Enquiry.
- Thread starter weltweit
- Start date
teqniq
DisMembered
he was goood on qt tonight
galloyway i mean
assange ok in uk
he only has to stay there4more years and sol runs out
he gud in the fifth estate
thought anarchists would like him
hes a market entrepreneur
nonetheless he v good
i dont see him as a rapist
do you?
oneflewover
Following "The Tigers"
It was the world's biggest megalomaniac that dun it
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
What is this doggrel?
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
Puppy shit.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
yeah sticking it in someone when they are asleep then holding them down when they wake up is rape.. What galloway should have said was that Assange is innocent till proven. Thats a fair enough comment. What he did say was that even if he was guilty, the crime is not in fact rape anyway. Its, and this is george gold 'poor sexual ettiquet'
I wouldn't piss on the pair of them
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
fuck, I'd forgot he was still a member! Detest as I do George Galloway (see last page), there is a certain irony that he was kicked out largely for opposing Blair and the war, whilst the war criminal himself retains membership. Corbyn will take flak if he does kick him out, but now really is the time and it would go down well with most of the public. Of course, if he did kick him out, there's a whole set of cabinet minions who were also very active players in going to war, which gets really messy.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I wonder if he will stll be getting those 10 mill after dinner speaking gigs post chilcot? I suppose the sort of person that would drop that amount of money on a post prandial prattler (he's on fire!) are just in it for the prestige anyway, so would book him regardless. Either way, theres some deep pockets to gouge on tony.The ethical thing to do. The only thing people like Blair understand is money.
Lurdan
old wave
There was a little more to Galloway's expulsion than that
BBC NEWS | Politics | Galloway expelled by Labour
Lurdan
old wave
His public profile having been raised again I'd expect him to increase his price.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yes, I understated it with 'largely'. However, there still is major irony about his expulsion for anti-war activities, regardless of how inevitable it was that he would get expelled, Vs the bloke who kicked off all the killing remaining in the Labour Party. And that, after about 13 years on these boards, is the closest I've ever come to praising George Galloway.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Well done Tony, this is the man you've made me say nice things about
'Fraternal Greetings'
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Well done Tony, this is the man you've made me say nice things about
'Fraternal Greetings'
... video taken from 'Peter Dow's site'.
YouSir
Retired from Urban
He still has a cadre of fanatics supporting him doesn't he? Some strange people in this world.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Forgotton about that.
George is a lose cannon entertaining when pointed at your enemies but not to be trusted in the slightest.
Theres anti war and then inciting armed resistance and mutiny
In the face of an illegal war of aggression ...with the Nuremberg definition of what constitutes the greatest crime against humanity...he was correct to do so imho .The fall out from that conflict was perfectly foreseeable . It's one of the great crimes of the modern age . And those who found him guilty were the actual criminals . History has vindicated him in the sense of the stand he took on that issue .
not-bono-ever
meh
John Prescott: Ex-deputy PM says Iraq War was illegal - BBC News
Prescott is both arse covering and joining in the stoning of St.Blair of Fettes.
Prescott is both arse covering and joining in the stoning of St.Blair of Fettes.
AnandLeo
Tipple Ripple
The expression ‘legality’ of Iraq war is not something bothers me. It is the rationality and sensibility that concerns me. Looking back on this invasion that has not gone well, my comment is that the special relationship of UK with US, yielded UK to sympathetic subjugation which is a nasty involvement. Even the current government of US does not recognize the Iraq war.
Another contended issue on this escapade is that people who went to war didn’t have the luxury of hindsight. However, the governments who went to war supposed to have had the intelligence. The intelligence that led to this war if that is true is hubris. The ordinary members of the public gather relevant intelligence from the media which is trivial.
Nothing is clear or black and white. Sadam had a rogue past record that blurred the capacity of WMDs in Iraq at the time of going to war. In the hindsight it appeared that he was a reformed ruler, yet secretly killing people in Iraq, and there were no WMDs.
Another contended issue on this escapade is that people who went to war didn’t have the luxury of hindsight. However, the governments who went to war supposed to have had the intelligence. The intelligence that led to this war if that is true is hubris. The ordinary members of the public gather relevant intelligence from the media which is trivial.
Nothing is clear or black and white. Sadam had a rogue past record that blurred the capacity of WMDs in Iraq at the time of going to war. In the hindsight it appeared that he was a reformed ruler, yet secretly killing people in Iraq, and there were no WMDs.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Bollocks.
There are a number of ways that arguments that seek to hide behind 'hindsight' in some way can be pissed on in relation to the Iraq war. Some of them became obvious because of the way the pre-war propaganda build-up got badly bogged down.
To give a slightly wacky example, in 2002 my boss believed the war was about WMD. So when Saddam actually let the weapons inspectors in, he thought that meant there wouldn't be a war. My recollection of the time is that not many other people I knew thought along those lines at all. Even those who were rather in favour of the war did not put all that much effort into trying to pretend that the WMD pretext was anything more than a pretext, or that actually evolving realities on the WMD front really made a difference to the Iraq war decision. There was a relatively high level of awareness about what propaganda, diplomatic and international games were being played in the build-up to the war, and partly because of obvious splits within various elites and institutions there was a good deal of cynicism on display at the time, not just with the benefit of hindsight.
elbows
Well-Known Member
This was certainly a phrase that struck me at the time and that I've brought up on the forums a few times over the years. Often when I've been trying to stop someone from drooling some wacky theories about 9/11 and instead concentrate on the opportunism on display - look at what they used the events of 9/11 to achieve, and resist the temptation to let this ugly opportunism leak backwards into incredible theories about how 9/11 happened in the first place.
And indeed the full speech makes it quite clear that this was another of those times where a terrible event was chalked up as being one of the growing pains of globalisation, and the response should be to press on with that agenda with renewed vigour.
In addition to all the domestic reasons why Blair really needed a more internationally harmonious Iraq war than the one he got, I can well believe that he thought the 'goodwill' that the USA gained in response to 9/11 should be stretched as far as possible. But it was squandered on Iraq and so that was the end of that particular rhetorical/political resource and momentum.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Well it should. Because its a war crime. And a war of aggression being illegal should be about stopping lots of innocent people from being killed . if there's not even a concept of legality there's no inhibition whatsoever .
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
I innocently hoped this was why the Pope welcomed him in to the Church, so he could be excommunicated. Obvs not.
He's neither a liar nor a fantasist though, he had mastered doublethink, he used this all the way through his premiership and he still uses it today. He doesn't just appear sincere, he is sincere. And he's comfortable being sincere about two opposing views at the same time.
Hang him high, sequester his funds and let's move on.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Iraq Chilcot inquiry: Bitterness in Baghdad - BBC News
Almost 24 hours after the massacre of civilians in Baghdad by so-called Islamic State, young men were digging frantically through the basement of one of the shopping centres that was destroyed.
They were looking for human remains. But all they found were some shoes and a pile of black ash. It was hot in the basement. The fire was still smouldering. Warm, scummy water dripped from the ceiling.
Outside, hundreds of people had gathered. Being there was a form of defiance. In the Iraqi capital, any crowded, dark street is a potential target for a suicide bomber.
Perhaps sharing infinite sadness makes it easier to bear. Many people cried, or prayed. I saw a Christian clergyman lighting candles and making the sign of the cross as well as young people chanting a Shia Muslim anthem for the dead.
Just because so many Iraqi civilians have been massacred does not make senseless killing any easier to bear for the survivors.
It is doubtful whether Iraqis who are so caught up in the pain of daily life will take much interest in the long-delayed publication of the UK's official inquiry into its part in the invasion of 2003.
Many people I have spoken to have already made up their minds about the impact of the invasion on Iraq. One of these is Kadhim al-Jabbouri, a man who became a symbol of the Iraqi peoples' rejection and hatred of Saddam Hussein.
On 9 April 2003, the American spearhead reached central Baghdad. Hours before they arrived, Kadhim, who was a champion weightlifter, decided to bring down the big bronze statue of Saddam Hussein that stood on a plinth in Firdous Square.
Kadhim owned a popular motorcycle shop and was a Harley-Davidson expert. For a while he fixed Saddam's bikes, but after the regime executed 14 members of his family he refused any more work. The regime's response to his effrontery was to put him in jail for two years on trumped-up charges.
Kadhim is a survivor. In prison, he started a gym and a weight-lifting club, and was eventually released in one of Saddam's periodic amnesties.
But on the morning of 9 April, Kadhim wanted his own personal moment of liberation and revenge. He took his sledgehammer and began to swing it at the plinth beneath the towering bronze dictator.
Journalists came out of the Palestine Hotel on the square and started broadcasting and taking pictures. Kadhim says their presence protected him from Saddam's secret policemen, who melted away as the sound of American guns came closer.
When the Americans arrived they looped a steel cable round the bronze Saddam's head and used a winch to help Kadhim finish the job. It all happened live on international TV. The image of furious and delighted Iraqis slapping the fallen statue with their shoes went around the world.
Kadhim said his story was told to President George W Bush in the Oval Office. But he now wishes he had left his sledgehammer at home.
Kadhim, like many Iraqis, blames the invaders for starting a chain of events that destroyed the country. He longs for the certainties and stability of Saddam's time.
First, he says, he realised it was not going to be liberation, but occupation. Then he hated the corruption, mismanagement and violence in the new Iraq. Most of all he despises Iraq's new leaders.
"Saddam has gone, and we have one thousand Saddams now," he says. "It wasn't like this under Saddam. There was a system. There were ways. We didn't like him, but he was better than those people."
"Saddam never executed people without a reason. He was as solid as a wall. There was no corruption or looting, it was safe. You could be safe."
Many Iraqis echo that. Saddam's regime was harsh, and it could be murderous. He led the country into a series of disastrous wars and brought crippling international sanctions down on their heads.
But with the benefit of 13 years of hindsight, the world that existed before 9 April 2003 seems to be a calmer, more secure place. They have not had a proper day of peace since the old regime fell.
As for democracy, many I have spoken to believe the hopelessly sectarian political system is broken. At least, they say, law and order existed under Saddam.
Some hoped things might get better after the army's victory over IS in Falluja. The devastating bomb attack in Baghdad in the early hours of Sunday has blasted that hope away.
I asked Kadhim he would do if he could meet Tony Blair.
"I would say to him you are a criminal, and I'd spit in his face."
And what would he say to George Bush?
"I'd say you're criminal too. You killed the children of Iraq. You killed the women and you killed the innocent. I would say the same to Blair. And to the coalition that invaded Iraq. I will say to them you are criminals and you should be brought to justice."
A chain of consequences that leads back to the invasion of 2003 caused Iraq's perpetual war.
The Americans and Britain removed a hated dictator, and dissolved his army and state. But they had no real plan to rebuild the country they had broken. They improvised - and made matters worse.
Jihadists were not in Iraq before the invasion. Shia and Sunni Muslims, whose sectarian civil war started during the occupation, could co-exist.
The invaders did not have enough troops to control Iraq. Jihadists poured across open borders. Al-Qaeda established itself here, and eventually was reborn as so-called Islamic State.
Iraqis have often made matters worse for themselves, but it was mistakes by the US and Britain that pushed Iraq down the road to catastrophe.
Almost 24 hours after the massacre of civilians in Baghdad by so-called Islamic State, young men were digging frantically through the basement of one of the shopping centres that was destroyed.
They were looking for human remains. But all they found were some shoes and a pile of black ash. It was hot in the basement. The fire was still smouldering. Warm, scummy water dripped from the ceiling.
Outside, hundreds of people had gathered. Being there was a form of defiance. In the Iraqi capital, any crowded, dark street is a potential target for a suicide bomber.
Perhaps sharing infinite sadness makes it easier to bear. Many people cried, or prayed. I saw a Christian clergyman lighting candles and making the sign of the cross as well as young people chanting a Shia Muslim anthem for the dead.
Just because so many Iraqi civilians have been massacred does not make senseless killing any easier to bear for the survivors.
It is doubtful whether Iraqis who are so caught up in the pain of daily life will take much interest in the long-delayed publication of the UK's official inquiry into its part in the invasion of 2003.
Many people I have spoken to have already made up their minds about the impact of the invasion on Iraq. One of these is Kadhim al-Jabbouri, a man who became a symbol of the Iraqi peoples' rejection and hatred of Saddam Hussein.
On 9 April 2003, the American spearhead reached central Baghdad. Hours before they arrived, Kadhim, who was a champion weightlifter, decided to bring down the big bronze statue of Saddam Hussein that stood on a plinth in Firdous Square.
Kadhim owned a popular motorcycle shop and was a Harley-Davidson expert. For a while he fixed Saddam's bikes, but after the regime executed 14 members of his family he refused any more work. The regime's response to his effrontery was to put him in jail for two years on trumped-up charges.
Kadhim is a survivor. In prison, he started a gym and a weight-lifting club, and was eventually released in one of Saddam's periodic amnesties.
But on the morning of 9 April, Kadhim wanted his own personal moment of liberation and revenge. He took his sledgehammer and began to swing it at the plinth beneath the towering bronze dictator.
Journalists came out of the Palestine Hotel on the square and started broadcasting and taking pictures. Kadhim says their presence protected him from Saddam's secret policemen, who melted away as the sound of American guns came closer.
When the Americans arrived they looped a steel cable round the bronze Saddam's head and used a winch to help Kadhim finish the job. It all happened live on international TV. The image of furious and delighted Iraqis slapping the fallen statue with their shoes went around the world.
Kadhim said his story was told to President George W Bush in the Oval Office. But he now wishes he had left his sledgehammer at home.
Kadhim, like many Iraqis, blames the invaders for starting a chain of events that destroyed the country. He longs for the certainties and stability of Saddam's time.
First, he says, he realised it was not going to be liberation, but occupation. Then he hated the corruption, mismanagement and violence in the new Iraq. Most of all he despises Iraq's new leaders.
"Saddam has gone, and we have one thousand Saddams now," he says. "It wasn't like this under Saddam. There was a system. There were ways. We didn't like him, but he was better than those people."
"Saddam never executed people without a reason. He was as solid as a wall. There was no corruption or looting, it was safe. You could be safe."
Many Iraqis echo that. Saddam's regime was harsh, and it could be murderous. He led the country into a series of disastrous wars and brought crippling international sanctions down on their heads.
But with the benefit of 13 years of hindsight, the world that existed before 9 April 2003 seems to be a calmer, more secure place. They have not had a proper day of peace since the old regime fell.
As for democracy, many I have spoken to believe the hopelessly sectarian political system is broken. At least, they say, law and order existed under Saddam.
Some hoped things might get better after the army's victory over IS in Falluja. The devastating bomb attack in Baghdad in the early hours of Sunday has blasted that hope away.
I asked Kadhim he would do if he could meet Tony Blair.
"I would say to him you are a criminal, and I'd spit in his face."
And what would he say to George Bush?
"I'd say you're criminal too. You killed the children of Iraq. You killed the women and you killed the innocent. I would say the same to Blair. And to the coalition that invaded Iraq. I will say to them you are criminals and you should be brought to justice."
A chain of consequences that leads back to the invasion of 2003 caused Iraq's perpetual war.
The Americans and Britain removed a hated dictator, and dissolved his army and state. But they had no real plan to rebuild the country they had broken. They improvised - and made matters worse.
Jihadists were not in Iraq before the invasion. Shia and Sunni Muslims, whose sectarian civil war started during the occupation, could co-exist.
The invaders did not have enough troops to control Iraq. Jihadists poured across open borders. Al-Qaeda established itself here, and eventually was reborn as so-called Islamic State.
Iraqis have often made matters worse for themselves, but it was mistakes by the US and Britain that pushed Iraq down the road to catastrophe.
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