Champion Hill: Proposed Ground Redevelopment

[Scolly]

In the event that planning permission is rejected, perhaps it could be back on the table.

If planning permission were denied, and it went through an appeal and so on, and was still denied, then what would happen next? The owners would be sitting on a site with only one way of generating revenue from it, which would be to lease it out as a stadium. Would there be customers other than DHFC who would pay more for it - or would coming to an agreement with DHFC then become in the interests of the landowner? (I have no idea)

If they allowed us to continue to lease the stadium, it would reach a stage that it would not be fit for purpose and games would not be able to be held at the level we are at now. We are very close to that now and it's only the 1000's of volunteer hours and money the club / Supporters' Trust have put in keeps us going on literately a week to week basis. The Trust has invested some £85K in the club over the past 18 months and this as taken up most of our reserves, money that as been accumulated over the last 10/15 through the hard work of supporters'.

However, it's also likely that they would sit on the site for many years, eventually planning would be given for them to build upon. Lets be honest, as central funding to local Governments continues to be cut, Councils have to find more ways of raising money just to keep basis services running ..... and I would suggest that it would not take long for Greendale to be a target as prime land to sold off, especially as the Council would be fencing in the Astro if the club looses planning and Southwark remove our licence to operate it.

Offer the stadium to others is also an unlikely options, the owners are likely to sit on the site as continuing to operate would certainly cost them a lot more than they are likely to get in ... there are few costs on having a vacant plot

 

[blueheaven]

If you think so. I notice you aren’t capable of backing up your opinion that we should prepare for potential league football.

I'm happy to back up my opinion with anyone who wants a reasonable discussion. What I can't be arsed with is engaging with someone who insists on being rude and aggressive to anyone who doesn't share their view.

Perhaps if you thought about your opinions people would think they were less worthless. Regardless, you probably still put your opinions out on social media as you think they are so important and worthwhile.

I don't think my opinions are any more important or worthwhile than anyone else's. You're the one calling other people's opinions worthless, not me.

We don't have a secure future because we don't have any control over our home ground. The proposed redevelopment will address this matter if approved.

Becoming a Football League club may not be a target or an ambition but I think most of us want to win whichever division we happen to be playing in. With 7th place qualifying for play-offs we can't compete to finish no higher than 7th in case it results in promotion, and if we find ourselves in the National Division ultimately we should be aiming for another promotion.

This is pretty much how I feel. We're just one promotion away from being in a situation where entry into the Football League could become a genuine possibility. If the right time to discuss that isn't now, when a new stadium is being planned, then when would the right time be? I think it would show a baffling level of short-sightedness not to think it at least worth discussing what might happen in that eventuality. It's not that I see it as a priority in the big scheme of things - but I do see it as something that is important for the club to give some consideration to (which I'm sure they are, which is why I asked the question in the first place).

Incidentally, on the subject of the pitch also being an issue with regards to Football League entry, this has already been addressed over on the EDF thread where YTC said: "I'm no fan on playing on 3G personally, but for the good of the club and community, it's a no brainer. If we ever got promoted to League 2, I feel we'd be in the position of a) Making a legal case for the inclusion of a 3G pitch or b) looking to supply a 3G pitch elsewhere in dulwich to replace the loss."

 

[B.I.G]

I'm happy to back up my opinion with anyone who wants a reasonable discussion. What I can't be arsed with is engaging with someone who insists on being rude and aggressive to anyone who doesn't share their view.



I don't think my opinions are any more important or worthwhile than anyone else's. You're the one calling other people's opinions worthless, not me.



This is pretty much how I feel. We're just one promotion away from being in a situation where entry into the Football League could become a genuine possibility. If the right time to discuss that isn't now, when a new stadium is being planned, then when would the right time be? I think it would show a baffling level of short-sightedness not to think it at least worth discussing what might happen in that eventuality. It's not that I see it as a priority in the big scheme of things - but I do see it as something that is important for the club to give some consideration to (which I'm sure they are, which is why I asked the question in the first place).

Incidentally, on the subject of the pitch also being an issue with regards to Football League entry, this has already been addressed over on the EDF thread where YTC said: "I'm no fan on playing on 3G personally, but for the good of the club and community, it's a no brainer. If we ever got promoted to League 2, I feel we'd be in the position of a) Making a legal case for the inclusion of a 3G pitch or b) looking to supply a 3G pitch elsewhere in dulwich to replace the loss."

You’re an idiot.

I look forward to you supporting Dulwich in the football league.

 

[B.I.G]

I'm happy to back up my opinion with anyone who wants a reasonable discussion. What I can't be arsed with is engaging with someone who insists on being rude and aggressive to anyone who doesn't share their view.



I don't think my opinions are any more important or worthwhile than anyone else's. You're the one calling other people's opinions worthless, not me.



This is pretty much how I feel. We're just one promotion away from being in a situation where entry into the Football League could become a genuine possibility. If the right time to discuss that isn't now, when a new stadium is being planned, then when would the right time be? I think it would show a baffling level of short-sightedness not to think it at least worth discussing what might happen in that eventuality. It's not that I see it as a priority in the big scheme of things - but I do see it as something that is important for the club to give some consideration to (which I'm sure they are, which is why I asked the question in the first place).

Incidentally, on the subject of the pitch also being an issue with regards to Football League entry, this has already been addressed over on the EDF thread where YTC said: "I'm no fan on playing on 3G personally, but for the good of the club and community, it's a no brainer. If we ever got promoted to League 2, I feel we'd be in the position of a) Making a legal case for the inclusion of a 3G pitch or b) looking to supply a 3G pitch elsewhere in dulwich to replace the loss."

I’m still irritated by this level of stupidity.

To stay in the football league you need 2000 seats. Perhaps you’d like to explain how to fit 2000 seats on the current land we have let alone less land.

Idiot.

 

[gnar182]

I'm happy to back up my opinion with anyone who wants a reasonable discussion. What I can't be arsed with is engaging with someone who insists on being rude and aggressive to anyone who doesn't share their view.



I don't think my opinions are any more important or worthwhile than anyone else's. You're the one calling other people's opinions worthless, not me.



This is pretty much how I feel. We're just one promotion away from being in a situation where entry into the Football League could become a genuine possibility. If the right time to discuss that isn't now, when a new stadium is being planned, then when would the right time be? I think it would show a baffling level of short-sightedness not to think it at least worth discussing what might happen in that eventuality. It's not that I see it as a priority in the big scheme of things - but I do see it as something that is important for the club to give some consideration to (which I'm sure they are, which is why I asked the question in the first place).

Incidentally, on the subject of the pitch also being an issue with regards to Football League entry, this has already been addressed over on the EDF thread where YTC said: "I'm no fan on playing on 3G personally, but for the good of the club and community, it's a no brainer. If we ever got promoted to League 2, I feel we'd be in the position of a) Making a legal case for the inclusion of a 3G pitch or b) looking to supply a 3G pitch elsewhere in dulwich to replace the loss."

just to reassure you, you aren’t the one who came across as an arsehole in this exchange.

 

[editor]

I’m still irritated by this level of stupidity.

To stay in the football league you need 2000 seats. Perhaps you’d like to explain how to fit 2000 seats on the current land we have let alone less land.

Idiot.

It's really not not on to keep calling someone an idiot because they have a different viewpoint to you. Take a fortnight off this thread.

 

[dcdulwich]

As someone involved - with Shaun and Clare in particular - on updating our capacity assessments, it might be helpful to point out a fact or two. If only to bring a bit of sanity to the thread.

To access the football league you need 500 seats but need to be able to demonstrate an ability to reach 1000. Similarly, a capacity of 4000 is required with an ability to reach 5000. That’s it. Anything stated to the contrary above is wrong.

Personally, I’m not mad keen on aggressively aiming for league status although, as others who I have great respect for have said, of course you always want to perform as best as you can in any league. For me, for now, the over-riding priority has to be to secure the future of our club - first, foremost and ad infinitum.

We’ve had some tough but, just to keep us on our toes, a succession of wonderful, sometimes heartbreaking, seasons in the last decade - nobody will ever take ‘promotion roundabout’ away - or forming a guard of honour when we lost to East Thurrock. It’s what we do. But there really is hard graft ahead.

The survival of the club - getting the planning decision through and moving on from there - will require huge levels of commitment from everyone involved with the club.

We’ll have to cut our cloth as one of the few (perhaps only) clubs in our division entirely dependent on matchday income.

Despite the (bloody heavy) headwinds, we’re in the best position that we have been for decades. The club is entirely in the hands of committed supporters who love this club to bits and won’t let it fail - and certainly won’t let it die. I’m now confident that it is only inimical (sorry - threw that in just to wind you up Mishi) external forces that can now ever make that happen.

See you on the other side of this Covid Nightmare folks. Whenever that might be!

 

[blueheaven]

As someone involved - with Shaun and Clare in particular - on updating our capacity assessments, it might be helpful to point out a fact or two. If only to bring a bit of sanity to the thread.

To access the football league you need 500 seats but need to be able to demonstrate an ability to reach 1000. Similarly, a capacity of 4000 is required with an ability to reach 5000. That’s it. Anything stated to the contrary above is wrong.

Thanks for taking the time to post this. Can I ask, from what is known of the new stadium plan at this stage, is it likely that it would be capable of meeting those requirements? I'm just wondering, hypothetically, what happens if everything goes to plan and the new stadium goes ahead and in a few years the club finds itself in this situation.

Personally, I’m not mad keen on aggressively aiming for league status although, as others who I have great respect for have said, of course you always want to perform as best as you can in any league. For me, for now, the over-riding priority has to be to secure the future of our club - first, foremost and ad infinitum.

Yeah I absolutely agree. For the record I'm not especially desperate to see the club aiming to reach the Football League. But I do think, when you look at the club's progress and expanding fanbase over the last few years, and the potential addition of a better stadium into the mix, it all takes us to a point where it's close enough that it surely has to be one of the considerations.

 

[PartisanDulwich]

 

[Pink Panther]

I despair. If someone finds it "unacceptable", fine, but those comments are a typical regurgitation of a litany of falsehoods. The stadium will be built on the site of a previous stadium and it's not Metropolitan Open Land.

 

[teuchter]

Are you relying on a definition of 'stadium' that doesn't include the playing field?

 

[Taper]

I think this chap has now hit bottom. Comparing the new stadium development to the death of George Floyd

 

[Cyclodunc]

Do agree that Air pollution is definitely a huge health emergency and is being ignored by too many people. Thousands of deaths a year because of it.

 

[Taper]

Indeed. But linking that to George Floyd and the stadium development is grimly disingenous.

 

[editor]

I think this chap has now hit bottom. Comparing the new stadium development to the death of George Floyd

A masterclass in hyperbole.

 

[tonysingh]

A masterclass in hyperbole.

You were much more diplomatic and loquacious than me.

I was just gonna call him a muggy cunt.

 

[YTC]

In what way will it be legally impossible?

I don't in any way believe that anyone currently involved in the club would have this intention.

However - what bothers me is that this was supposed to be the case with the existing stadium, wasn't it? That site has a planning condition on it which says it can't be redeveloped for other uses. The council have to over-ride that condition in order to permit the current proposal. What we have right now seems to be a repeat of what happened previously: the old football ground was redeveloped, and some new, previously open land allocated to the club. That previously open land had the stadium built upon it, and it was protected by a planning condition to try and stop what is happening now, from happening. This apparently hasn't worked. So is there a substantially different situation now, in the current proposals, a legal setup that really makes sure it can't happen again?

I feel it's a little unfair to tell those who oppose the development that they are "choosing death" for the club. If the application fails, and the club cannot survive then that's a result of what happened in the club's history, before its resurgence, isn't it? That's what has generated the financial situation where the club's only means of survival is to accept what in effect is a cash handout from a developer, where the developer will only hand out that cash if some public land is made available to the football club. In the end, there are all sorts of organisations who are short of cash, and would like to redevelop their club buildings and so on, but most of them don't happen to sit in the position that you do, where you have a kind of negotiating lever that can potentially get you something worth tens of millions of pounds, in exchange for compromises being made about the use of public land.

This is a trick commonly played by developers - to make out that denying them permission for something will damage the public good - for example, they'll demolish a building and then say, well, if you don't give us permission there's just going to be a wasteland there, or we'll sell it to someone who wants to do something even less popular with it, or whatever. But they deliberately set up that situation, and it seems that they've rather successfully played a similar game here.

Actually, I'm quite sympathetic to your efforts, and I don't doubt you have all the best intentions and part of me hopes you'll succeed. It's probably very annoying to have me say that and then raise these questions and objections. But while part of me wants to see you get a long term solution, the other part of me has a big issue with the developer getting away with this, as a matter of principle, and because of the precedent that it sets.

I hear what you're saying, as I stated in my original message. I was the one that fought against what happened to us tooth and nail, and with some success thankfully with the help of everyone else involved in the club. But that IS the fact. The clubs gone if we don't get this. We could hold on to the IP maybe, but it's gone as we know it. Meadow don't owe us a lease. It will get run down, it will end up just being developed for housing, just without us there. That's been the deal since the first time developers got a hold of it. It's not changing, hence this being the only viable solution. I know it hurts, but we're here trying to provide a football club for generations ahead of us.

On the point of it being legally impossible, it would be due to the dual nature of the leases. They only operate in tandem, so we can't just get rid of the meadow side if we fancy it without loosing the council side. I mean why anyone would suggest we'd do that is absolutely insane but just for clarity - thats what I mean when I say legally impossible. This locks the club in for 125 years, it also locks in Meadow and the Council. It's designed to protect us in that sense.

I think my preferred solution would have involved a compulsory purchase of the existing stadium by Southwark. And the purchase value should have reflected the fact that it is a site with a planning condition on it that means that it can't be developed as housing.

Had there been a solid base for that to happen, it would have happened by now I'd imagine. Again, just pointing out the stark reality here. There are no plan B's. We as a group of fans have fought to be included and protected through this process, and in fairness since we made our case and negotiated with the help of Harriet, Helen Tracy and DCMS, Meadow have been decent to us. A 125 year lease on a stadium is not a bad deal, let me tell you. Especially if you've not had security of tenure since the 70's.

As an aside, the covenant runs into some problems. It's easily circumnavigated and not legally sound, look at the case of Newbury FC and Faraday road. Thats not the council or meadows fault, it's just flimsy legislation in my understanding.

 

[YTC]

And also JESUS BiG have a lie down mate

 

[EDC]

However - what bothers me is that this was supposed to be the case with the existing stadium, wasn't it? That site has a planning condition on it which says it can't be redeveloped for other uses. The council have to over-ride that condition in order to permit the current proposal. What we have right now seems to be a repeat of what happened previously: the old football ground was redeveloped, and some new, previously open land allocated to the club. That previously open land had the stadium built upon it, and it was protected by a planning condition to try and stop what is happening now, from happening. This apparently hasn't worked. So is there a substantially different situation now, in the current proposals, a legal setup that really makes sure it can't happen again?

Wrong, the ground hardly moved and where it did was slightly south over it's car park. You can still see the parking lines painted on the wall along the footpath.

 

[YTC]

EDC is correct. It's on the same footprint.

 

[teuchter]

That's my error then, I have obviously misremembered the details. There was, however, effectively open land built upon, permission being given on the understanding that the football ground would not then also be developed, right? In other words the football club was allowed to profit from the loss of some green space.

 

[teuchter]

It will get run down, it will end up just being developed for housing, just without us there. That's been the deal since the first time developers got a hold of it. It's not changing, hence this being the only viable solution. I know it hurts, but we're here trying to provide a football club for generations ahead of us.

If this is the inevitable outcome (presumably your feeling is that the council simply wouldn't be able to uphold the planning condition?) then my question would be, why is the developer giving away a chunk of their land to the football club? Why not simply redevelop the whole site?

It kind of implies that there is a sort-of-enforcable condition on the land. It doesn't really make sense to me: either it's unenforcable, in which case why would the developer give away a valuable piece of land, or it's enforcable, in which case why allow them to get away with it?

 

[pettyboy]

If this is the inevitable outcome (presumably your feeling is that the council simply wouldn't be able to uphold the planning condition?) then my question would be, why is the developer giving away a chunk of their land to the football club? Why not simply redevelop the whole site?

It kind of implies that there is a sort-of-enforcable condition on the land. It doesn't really make sense to me: either it's unenforcable, in which case why would the developer give away a valuable piece of land, or it's enforcable, in which case why allow them to get away with it?

Would imagine they don't want a repeat of the PR disaster they had to deal with last time...Effectively killing off a 125+ football club isn't a great look for a multinational company.

 

[YTC]

See Above.

 

[YTC]

I hope the rest of my reply answered some of your Questions!

 

[blueheaven]

If this is the inevitable outcome (presumably your feeling is that the council simply wouldn't be able to uphold the planning condition?) then my question would be, why is the developer giving away a chunk of their land to the football club? Why not simply redevelop the whole site?

It kind of implies that there is a sort-of-enforcable condition on the land. It doesn't really make sense to me: either it's unenforcable, in which case why would the developer give away a valuable piece of land, or it's enforcable, in which case why allow them to get away with it?

Is it not the case that the council wouldn't grant them planning permission if they didn't incorporate a home for the football club into their plans? That's the way I'd always thought of it.

 

[teuchter]

Is it not the case that the council wouldn't grant them planning permission if they didn't incorporate a home for the football club into their plans? That's the way I'd always thought of it.

Well, they haven't incorporated a home for the football club into their plans. They've accommodated only a small portion (less than half?) of the area required for the football club's home into their plans.

 

[Latahs]

Just received a message from DHST requesting that fans make representations to Southwark supporting the development.

Since the statements regarding the likelihood of the application being approved objectors have flooded the site. This is of course way beyond the deadline which was March but there is a risk that this will still influence the councillors. As a result everyone needs to get on there and support the development again. If you have already commented it'll combine your comments. It looks like the objecting groups have got whoever they can to leave messages objecting, a lot of which probably came after a physical leaflet drop happened on Monday night. As we have seen in this thread there has been hyperbole, misinformation etc bandied about by these guys but its gone beyond the pale now. DHFC has been a beacon of light in this community and the way the club is being painted cannot stand uncorrected. Comments must be made before 12:30 tomorrow.

Please get anyone you know who knows, loves or visits the club to help us out.

 

[blueheaven]

Well, they haven't incorporated a home for the football club into their plans. They've accommodated only a small portion (less than half?) of the area required for the football club's home into their plans.

OK, the point's the same though. You asked why "the developer is giving away a chunk of their land to the football club", and I responded that I thought the council wouldn't give them planning permission if they didn't.

 

[editor]

The vote is going to the wire right now.