Challenging Intersectionalist nonsense

[SpookyFrank]

My limited knowledge of it thus far is that it's practiced in Goldsmiths and practiced in Yale.

And also in the real world.

 

[Citizen66]

And also in the real world.

Where?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Where?

The Real World. Noun. Everywhere apart from art school.

 

[Citizen66]

The Real World. Noun. Everywhere apart from art school.

Are the state manoeuvring to quash it?

 

[Citizen66]

Does it challenge the established order, or does it serve it?

 

[toggle]

Does it challenge the established order, or does it serve it?

your question does indicate a lack of understanding.

how in the hell does an idea that was formed, to allow victims of different systematic oppressions fight together on the same side, support the established order?

 

[Citizen66]

your question does indicate a lack of understanding.

how in the hell does an idea that was formed, to allow victims of different systematic oppressions fight together on the same side, support the established order?

When it's popular in Goldsmiths and Yale?

 

[toggle]

When it's popular in Goldsmiths and Yale?

i don't really give a fuck about what they thunk of this in goldsmiths and yale. and i don't feel the need to judge an idea by what kind of fuck ups it can get turned into in student politics. what i'm interested in is the ideas of not making people choose which oppression they fight, but in finding ways to fight together, of avoiding the competitions for resources and attention and the accusations and self appointed privilaged spokespeole that you find in identity politics.

intersectionality is not identity politics. it's the counter to that.

 

[toggle]

Are the state manoeuvring to quash it?

does the state act to prevent people working together to fight against the power of the state?

erm.....

fairly sure you know the answer to that.

 

[Citizen66]

i don't really give a fuck about what they thunk of this in goldsmiths and yale. and i don't feel the need to judge an idea by what kind of fuck ups it can get turned into in student politics. what i'm interested in is the ideas of not making people choose which oppression they fight, but in finding ways to fight together, of avoiding the competitions for resources and attention and the accusations and self appointed privilaged spokespeole that you find in identity politics.

intersectionality is not identity politics. it's the counter to that.

But I don't see any evidence that it exists outside of privileged circles.

 

[Citizen66]

does the state act to prevent people working together to fight against the power of the state?

erm.....

fairly sure you know the answer to that.

The trade union bill is going through Parliament now, a very real thing. The turnout to the evening rally last week was piss poor. Not sure if any intersectionalists were there, but there wasn't many if there were.

 

[ViolentPanda]

i don't really give a fuck about what they thunk of this in goldsmiths and yale. and i don't feel the need to judge an idea by what kind of fuck ups it can get turned into in student politics. what i'm interested in is the ideas of not making people choose which oppression they fight, but in finding ways to fight together, of avoiding the competitions for resources and attention and the accusations and self appointed privilaged spokespeole that you find in identity politics.

intersectionality is not identity politics. it's the counter to that.

It is, however, presented as an adjunct to identity politics by those who wish to a) defuse it as a mode of solidarism,and b) appropriate the language (though not the meaning) for their own benefit.

 

[toggle]

But I don't see any evidence that it exists outside of privileged circles.

guess you aren't looking in the right places.

 

[Citizen66]

guess you aren't looking in the right places.

Which are?

 

[Jon-of-arc]

your question does indicate a lack of understanding.

how in the hell does an idea that was formed, to allow victims of different systematic oppressions fight together on the same side, support the established order?

That's one of the questions I have about what I do understand as "intersectionality"; doesn't it encourage victims of different systematic oppressions to fight separately on the same side? Thus supporting the established order?

 

[Citizen66]

That's one of the questions I have about what I do understand as "intersectionality"; doesn't it encourage victims of different systematic oppressions to fight separately on the same side? Thus supporting the established order?

It completely ignores class politics afaict. Hence Yale lapping it up.

 

[toggle]

It completely ignores class politics afaict. Hence Yale lapping it up.

have you read the article posted by Odrade?

That's one of the questions I have about what I do understand as "intersectionality"; doesn't it encourage victims of different systematic oppressions to fight separately on the same side? Thus supporting the established order?

no.

it's about speaking to the people at the overlap of the systematic oppressions to find ways to make it one campaign.

The trade union bill is going through Parliament now, a very real thing. The turnout to the evening rally last week was piss poor. Not sure if any intersectionalists were there, but there wasn't many if there were.

so not many people there at all, but lets blame the intersectionalists.

 

[eoin_k]

I thought the term had been coined by a Harvard educated legal scholar, who had worked on research funded by the US military. This doesn't necessarily mean that the concept can be dismissed out of hand, but I haven't seen a healthy debate about the questions this might raise between supporters and opponents of intersectionality.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

it's about speaking to the people at the overlap of the systematic oppressions to find ways to make it one campaign.

How do I get involved?

 

[toggle]

I thought the term had been coined by a Harvard educated legal scholar, who had worked on research funded by the US military. This doesn't necessarily mean that the concept can be dismissed out of hand, but I haven't seen a healthy debate about the questions this might raise between supporters and opponents of intersectionality.

the ideas came out of a the work of a black feminist collective,

We realize that the liberation of all oppressed peoples necessitates the destruction of the political-economic systems of capitalism and imperialism as well as patriarchy. We are socialists because we believe that work must be organized for the collective benefit of those who do the work and create the products, and not for the profit of the bosses. Material resources must be equally distributed among those who create these resources. We are not convinced, however, that a socialist revolution that is not also a feminist and anti-racist revolution will guarantee our liberation. We have arrived at the necessity for developing an understanding of class relationships that takes into account the specific class position of Black women who are generally marginal in the labor force, while at this particular time some of us are temporarily viewed as doubly desirable tokens at white-collar and professional levels. We need to articulate the real class situation of persons who are not merely raceless, sexless workers, but for whom racial and sexual oppression are significant determinants in their working/economic lives. Although we are in essential agreement with Marx's theory as it applied to the very specific economic relationships he analyzed, we know that his analysis must be extended further in order for us to understand our specific economic situation as Black women.

The Combahee River Collective Statement

 

[Orang Utan]

bell hooks ain't middle class

 

[Citizen66]

have you read the article posted by Odrade?





no.

it's about speaking to the people at the overlap of the systematic oppressions to find ways to make it one campaign.



so not many people there at all, but lets blame the intersectionalists.

I haven't read it but promise I will. What gets on my nerves is at a time when class organising is at an all time low, whilst attacks against the working class are at an all time high, is that this shit is being wheeled out and is something that the state doesn't fear as it fits perfectly with how liberal protest should form and be ineffective. Because as far as I can see this isn't happening in work places. It isn't happening in housing estates. It's happening in academia. What did that ever change?

 

[Steel Icarus]

Nobody's heard of bell hooks. I work with students who I doubt have heard of Peter Hook, even. This stuff may well be useful in analysing one's place in the scheme of things and how multiple oppressions and pressures can work at once but it's really not well-known at all, and even among people who I HAVE seen who've known about it, it's been largely used in an oppression olympics kind of way.

 

[toggle]

I haven't read it but promise I will. What gets on my nerves is at a time when class organising is at an all time low, whilst attacks against the working class are at an all time high, is that this shit is being wheeled out and is something that the state doesn't fear as it fits perfectly with how liberal protest should form and be ineffective. Because as far as I can see this isn't happening in work places. It's happening in academia. What did that ever change?

why isn't it happening in work places? have the unions still not learned the lessons from their failures to support, for example, women council workers in their cases over bonus allocation?

 

[Citizen66]

why isn't it happening in work places? have the unions still not learned the lessons from their failures to support, for example, women council workers in their cases over bonus allocation?

What unions? They're dying.

 

[Citizen66]

Okay then. What are intersectionalist groups organising? I'll hold my nose if it's good. Don't say Focus E15, they colonised it after inception.

 

[butchersapron]

bell hooks ain't middle class

Yes she is. That was the basis of her book about class.

I think the last few posts have demonstrated the confusion. The founding text of the tradition was the legal stuff mentioned above (thoughts on a challenge to general motors) but has itself came from a series of prior battles, experiences and reflections on them.

The question emy asked is very relevant. And reading the document itself clears away so much...shit. I posted it on here before and begged people to read it but it doesn't seem many bothered given the round and round.

 

[toggle]

don't get me wrong, I am not a supporter of the shit that gets wheeled out that claims to be intersectional by the likes of laurie penny.

What unions? They're dying.

and I despair at that.

the council workers case shows how unions failed to change, to respond to the needs of some of their own. they protected labour councils from challenge. they protected the greater wages for male workers at the expense of female workers. blaming those who haven't failed to heed marginalised voices isn't the solution. working with them is.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Yes she is. That was the basis of her book about class.

I think the last few posts have demonstrated the confusion. The founding text of the tradition was the legal stuff mentioned above (thoughts on a challenge to general motors) but has itself came from a series of prior battles, experiences and reflections on them.

The question emy asked is very relevant. And reading the document itself clears away so much...shit. I posted it on here before and begged people to read it but it doesn't seem many bothered given the round and round.

I've read it - she doesn't ignore class, something a lot of people who happily cite her appear to have missed

 

[Citizen66]

don't get me wrong, I am not a supporter of the shit that gets wheeled out that claims to be intersectional by the likes of laurie penny.

and I despair at that.

the council workers case shows how unions failed to change, to respond to the needs of some of their own. they protected labour councils from challenge. they protected the greater wages for male workers at the expense of female workers. blaming those who haven't failed to heed marginalised voices isn't the solution. working with them is.

Fair point and I agree with you. I don't agree with top down trades unionism but if they're already established its sometimes all you have. My point was more that I don't see these big advocates of intersectionalism out on the street as part of the labour movement. Citing reasons of top down malpractice isn't a good enough excuse to not offer practical solidarity with those at the bottom.

Edited to improve text.