Challenging Intersectionalist nonsense

[Jon-of-arc]

Hi,

Looking for some advice and tips on challenging intersectionalism that pops up on a political page on Facebook I subscribe to. It's the page of an active local group that I have on occasion been involved with, and may do again, so I don't want to disagree in an unpleasant way. The group does good work, and I think the Facebook stuff is the work of just one person. Still needs to be confronted though.

Can anyone give me a few pointers on the main issues with it, standard lines that are trotted out and good rebuttal's to those lines?

Soz for being a bit vague. I just keep seeing this stuff and know instinctively that it's wrong, but I'm not really politically articulate enough to explain why. Ta.

 

[Pickman's model]

fuck off a good all-purpose response to any sort of nonsense

 

[Jon-of-arc]

fuck off a good all-purpose response to any sort of nonsense

​

Broadly concur, but for reasons explained, I would like to avoid alienating this particular person.

 

[butchersapron]

Have you an example of what you would like to challenge?

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Have you an example of what you would like to challenge?

I'll post a few tomorrow. Gonna take a bit of time to rake through the page. But yeah, should be able to.

 

[laptop]

Bookmarked

 

[tufty79]

Likewise

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Ok, I'll post some bits and bobs - please take note, this is interspersed with some perfectly reasonable, informative and important info, related to the group and their mandate (anti fascism).

Yhere are some links like this, which for some reason are always labled "Must read" (Really? Is it an absolute "must"? I'm not sure it is...), which have a running theme of "shut it, whitey"....

10 Common Things Well-Intentioned Allies Do That Are Actually Counterproductive

including stuff like...

3. Responding Poorly When Held Accountable or Challenged
9. Giving Advice from a Place of Privilege

Then there's stuff like this gem, about goldsmiths woman...

To make it abundantly clear, we stand with Bahar Mustafa who faces charges in November for tweeting the hashtag #killallwhitemen As a comrade who has tirelessly worked on maintaining spaces for the LGBTQ community and people of colour, we are disgusted but not surprised that the state is actually pursuing charges against her.

No charges against identified members of National Action desecrating Jewish graves and graffiting swastikas on Birmingham Uni campus. No charges for Britain First and the coppers who dragged a Muslim photographer around in Dudley. No charges for the thousands of racists openly inciting and acting out violence towards minority groups in every element of movements like Britain First, EDL etc. No charges against the *fascist group* openly doing a call out to burn down a mosque in ******* (but the Police did like their demo status ofc). The list is endless. No charges for the millions of men harassing, threatening, hurting and assaulting women everyday. No charges for the onslaught of violence trans and non binary people face each day.
#westandwithBahar

I don't particularly stand with Bahar, and I've not heard anyone else in the group mention her or express political beliefs like hers.

Interestingly (though not that interestingly for the purpose of the thread) I have just trawled through all FB posts going back to June last year, and some of the more ridiculous and irrelevant bits have been removed. There was stuff coming down on the side of clapham ultras, re the fracas with the celtic chaps earlier this year, there was something about white people appropriating ethnic cultural tropes, which included something about Katey Perry dressing in far-eastern inspired clothes for a gig and why white westerners shouldn't do yoga (because poor people in India weren't allowed to do it), there were more "must reads" about things "privileged people" shouldn't do, along with some other things over the 12 months since I first liked the page which I've forgotten that made me raise an eyebrow. It may be that someone a bit more involved had a word and they were removed... But the two examples I gave are from the last month or so, so they seem to be creeping back in.

Anyway, this is the sort of stuff I'm talking about. It's not that I don't think the admin is entitled to these views - I just don't think they should be on the page they are.

butchersapron

*NB - edited bits that identify the area the page is from

 

[tufty79]

Oh.

 

[tufty79]

The counter productive list thing seems perfectly reasonable ime

 

[Jon-of-arc]

The counter productive list thing seems perfectly reasonable ime

Some of it is, some of it isn't. It's not really on to say "don't give advice from a place of privilege". Why not? That's not to say that a "privileged person" should act as if they understand all of the issues that an oppressed group faces, but "don't give advice"?

 

[tufty79]

I think you and i are reading it very differently and from different places of experience

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think you and i are reading it very differently and from different places of experience

...and here in lies the 'usefulness' of understanding intersectionalism and not dismissing it all out of hand.

 

[tufty79]

Some of it is, some of it isn't. It's not really on to say "don't give advice from a place of privilege". Why not? That's not to say that a "privileged person" should act as if they understand all of the issues that an oppressed group faces, but "don't give advice"?

A couple of years ago when i was utterly skint and having panic attacks, a friend suggested buying lettuce hearts and rescue remedy immediately. Didn't offer to lend the money and knew i was down to 8p from down the back of the sofa. Just because they could have afforded it, they forgot to take into account that i couldn't and their advice was essentially useless and actually a bit upsetting at the time, and fucking frustrating.


They were an example of giving advice from a place of privilege in a personal situation. It transfers well to group work and political sects too.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

A couple of years ago when i was utterly skint and having panic attacks, a friend suggested buying lettuce hearts and rescue remedy immediately. Didn't offer to lend the money and knew i was down to 8p from down the back of the sofa. Just because they could have afforded ir they forgot to take into account that i couldn't and their advice was essentially useless and actually a bit upsetting at the time, and fucking frustrating.


They were an example of giving advice from a place of privilege.

Should she, as someone who was not in the same situation as you, have not given any advice at all? She was in a place of privilege, after all. Best to not speak at all...

There's something in the link about not advising queer/trans people to come out. Should one advise them not to come out? Should we just keep our opionions to ourselves?

Sure, sometimes advice is ill considered, may not take into account things you don't know, or know but don't fully understand as an issue, but that can happen no matter how privileged or not you are.

 

[tufty79]

Should she, as someone who was not in the same situation as you, have not given any advice at all? She was in a place of privilege, after all. .

Yeah keeping shut would have been preferable. She knew me and my circumstances inside out.


Again, obviously coming from different places. I will leave alone, good luck with getting to grips with this stuff. -used well it is great, it just ends up being used clumsily by twats who don't understand people but can do brilliant political analyses. And stamp cackhandedly all over humanity when they try to engage with real life.

 

[Treacle Toes]

...but can do brilliant political analyses.

They think they do anyway...and that's part of the problem. Who can know everything?..theory is just that...without experience it's guesswork to some extent...it's a framework that is useful but without acknowledging our limitations and our priviledge when employing it, it just becomes paternalistic and subjective doctrine. Often the very thing we believe we are trying to avoid or claim we are against.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Yeah keeping shut would have been preferable. She knew me and my circumstances inside out.


Again, obviously coming from different places. I will leave alone, good luck with getting to grips with this stuff. -used well it is great, it just ends up being used clumsily by twats who don't understand people but can do brilliant political analyses. And stamp cackhandedly all over humanity when they try to engage with real life.

Fair play. Not looking for beef. You sounded interested in the thread - if you have any better examples, I would be interested to see them.

 

[tufty79]

am coming here when and if i can and for distraction. Will get my brain on abd come back when less fuzzed and on a computer

 

[Treacle Toes]

Fair play. Not looking for beef. You sounded interested in the thread - if you have any better examples, I would be interested to see them.

Outline your hierarchy of experiences and maybe we can have this conversation....Better example? What is better IYO? I suggest by imposing a hierarchy you are changing the goalposts (that we are equals discussing intersectionalism) and imposing your priviledge.

 

[Citizen66]

What do you want to discuss? And by discuss I mean not copy and paste from elsewhere.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

What do you want to discuss? And by discuss I mean not copy and paste from elsewhere.

Well, what I wanted to discuss was stuff that I planned to copy and paste from elsewhere. Seeing as its been deleted, I'm going to be a bit short on contributions. But if anyone else has any examples of intersectionalist thinking or posting, I'd be interested in reading criticisms of it from a left leaning perspective, so that I'm better equipped to challenge it if and when I see it again. I'm not holding my breathe, though.

 

[Citizen66]

Well, what I wanted to discuss was stuff that I planned to copy and paste from elsewhere. Seeing as its been deleted, I'm going to be a bit short on contributions. But if anyone else has any examples of intersectionalist thinking or posting, I'd be interested in reading criticisms of it from a left leaning perspective, so that I'm better equipped to challenge it if and when I see it again. I'm not holding my breathe, though.

1) it's based on identity rather than social position. This has been co-opted (encouraged/accepted) by Liberal/Centrist politics as it dilutes arguments coming from a class perspective and pits people against each other rather than against Capital. So it does the same as bigotry does for the right but for the right on.

2) isn't it fucking obvious?

 

[bluescreen]

Well, what I wanted to discuss was stuff that I planned to copy and paste from elsewhere. Seeing as its been deleted, I'm going to be a bit short on contributions. But if anyone else has any examples of intersectionalist thinking or posting, I'd be interested in reading criticisms of it from a left leaning perspective, so that I'm better equipped to challenge it if and when I see it again. I'm not holding my breathe, though.

Why do you want to challenge it on principle, though? Genuinely not understanding here, from a position of relative privilege.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

1) it's based on identity rather than social position. This has been co-opted (encas ouraged/accepted) by Liberal/Centrist politics as it dilutes arguments coming from a class perspective and pits people against each other rather than against Capital. So it does the same as bigotry does for the right but for the right on.

2) isn't it fucking obvious?

Aye, that is roughly what I was thinking was the issue, but still wanted to hear some more in-depth rebuttals of specific things that I've read from people (or, more specifically, a person) who seems to be posting from an intersectionalist bent,

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Why do you want to challenge it on principle, though? Genuinely not understanding here, from a position of relative privilege.

(also posting from a position of relative privilege - white, male, straight, middle class etc)

I want to challenge it because I read these things and know with every fibre of my being that it is wrong. And yet I can't articulate why it is wrong. So, when you ask me "why I want to challenge it", you're essentially asking me to input into the thread what I was hoping to get out of it; a clear explanation of the issues and pitfalls that arise from people espousing intersectional politics.

 

[bluescreen]

Posted my stupid question above without having seen Citizen66's comment. Thanks for that. Still not convinced it's so easy to deconstruct like that if you're not the default class.

 

[SpookyFrank]

To make it abundantly clear, we stand with Bahar Mustafa who faces charges in November for tweeting the hashtag #killallwhitemen As a comrade.../snip

This is what my brain does whenever I encounter the word 'comrade'.

 

[bluescreen]

'Knowing with every fibre of your being' is not a good feeling. And even that needs challenging, perhaps?

 

[Treacle Toes]

(also posting from a position of relative privilege - white, male, straight, middle class etc)

I want to challenge it because I read these things and know with every fibre of my being that it is wrong. And yet I can't articulate why it is wrong. So, when you ask me "why I want to challenge it", you're essentially asking me to input into the thread what I was hoping to get out of it; a clear explanation of the issues and pitfalls that arise from people espousing intersectional politics.

Why have you skipped over my posts on this thread?...just curious.