Caps on economic migrants

[ViolentPanda]

Remember your lines about Moseley and Chesterton...To slur my views on getting rid of an unelected judiciary.....

Let's get this straight, my little revisionist toerag; I didn't reference Chesterton and Mosley to "slur" you, I referenced them (as everyone else on the thread except you and your bezzy mate durutti understood) to illustrate how ideas can "swap sides", even when having totally opposite ideologies behind them.

Nice try, but as usual you're about as sharp as as a spoon.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unlike you Durrutti has been involved in Left wing politics and come to understand the limitations of the Orthodox left....While you were busy helping Anne Widdecombe and Michael Howard at the Home office some people were politically active in left groups. And whilst they still want to change the world they dont think the orthodox left and small groups of dogmatists are the way to do it....
You really dont get it....Perhaps if you could google it...that would help.....

Because no-one else has been involved in left politics, have they?

Like you boasting about "bashing the fash" in the 90s as if some of us were'nt doing it in the 70s and 80s.

I'm glad that "Durrutti has been involved in Left wing politics and come to understand the limitations of the Orthodox left", great stuff. I worked that one out around the time Michael Foot got elected leader of the Labour party.

As for your the sad little attempt to paint me as an ideological fellow to Widdecombe and Howard, as I've said before, anyone with half a brain knows how the Civil Service works, it's only tedious cretins such as yourself who try to make capital out of it.

Go have a wank balders, you obviously need it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Your interpretation of what happened in Spain is interesting but thats all it is an interesting interpretation.

Actually it's something acknowledged as fact by most Spanish economists and historians.
Mind you, you know better than those over-educated middle-class tossers, don't you?

Migrant workers sending money home does not have a very good record in helping rather than hindering countries...Look at Ireland...It wasnt until it got EU money that things got better...

In the RoI remittances kept the economy afloat when it would have otherwise tanked in the late 70s and the eighties.

 

[tbaldwin]

Actually it's something acknowledged as fact by most Spanish economists and historians.
Mind you, you know better than those over-educated middle-class tossers, don't you?

In the RoI remittances kept the economy afloat when it would have otherwise tanked in the late 70s and the eighties.

VP your interpretation of "facts" yet again.....Very interesting........

 

[ViolentPanda]

VP your interpretation of "facts" yet again.....Very interesting........

You're welcome to refer to as many different histories of modern Spain as you like, balders. Let me know when you find one that contradicts the basic information I gave (and wasn't written by a fascist or neo-fascist) and I'll concede the point.
We both know, of course, that you won't be able to.

As for the Republic of Ireland;

Compare Ireland's economy and the effects of the "oil shocks" and inflation and stagnation with other similar-sized states in Europe, and tell me what factor(s) (if not remittances) stopped the RoI's economy taking a nosedive?

You're a bright fella (at least in your own estimation), so I'm sure you can come up with a reasoned counter-argument to my point.

Can't you?

Or is it actually that the great tbaldwin, man of the people and "authoritarian socialist", is engaging in a little "interpretation of facts" himself?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

VP your interpretation of "facts" yet again.....Very interesting........

Ok, facts:

1. The World Bank estimates that migrants from developing countries in developed countries sent home more than $223 billion to their families in developing countries in 2005 – a figure more than twice the level of international aid. See www.worldbank.org/remittances

2. Between 1962 and 1971, hard currency remittances from Spanish workers abroad offset 17.9% of the country's trade deficit. In other words, this hard currency could be used to buy stuff from abroad. In the absence of anything much to sell abroad, this was an important factor in stimulating the economy.

 

[tbaldwin]

Ok, facts:

1. The World Bank estimates that migrants from developing countries in developed countries sent home more than $223 billion to their families in developing countries in 2005 – a figure more than twice the level of international aid. See www.worldbank.org/remittances

2. Between 1962 and 1971, hard currency remittances from Spanish workers abroad offset 17.9% of the country's trade deficit. In other words, this hard currency could be used to buy stuff from abroad. In the absence of anything much to sell abroad, this was an important factor in stimulating the economy.

1 Is an estimate the same thing as a fact?
Do you really trust the world bank?

2 Stimulating the economy for who?

Any facts on how many Doctors there are per head of population in Africa compared to the countries that poach them jesus?

 

[tbaldwin]

As for the Republic of Ireland;

Compare Ireland's economy and the effects of the "oil shocks" and inflation and stagnation with other similar-sized states in Europe, and tell me what factor(s) (if not remittances) stopped the RoI's economy taking a nosedive?


Or is it actually that the great tbaldwin, man of the people and "authoritarian socialist", is engaging in a little "interpretation of facts" himself?

1 So now you do think that Ireland is a good example of migration being a positive thing do you?
Just so this thicko is completely clear..............

I thought EU money led to the Celtic tiger economy, not people sending money home. But as usual my teacher has something different to say....

Of course i interpret facts i think we all do which is a point ive tried to make to you a few....times.

 

[ViolentPanda]

1 So now you do think that Ireland is a good example of migration being a positive thing do you?
Just so this thicko is completely clear..............

Nope, I think it's an average example of some of the problems caused by prolonged excessive migration, actually.

I thought EU money led to the Celtic tiger economy, not people sending money home. But as usual my teacher has something different to say....

The "Celtic tiger" thing is a function of the late 1989s-early 1990s, and I haven't anywhere claimed that "people sending money home" was the cause of it.
If you'd bothered to read what I'd read (rather than interpreting it through the filter of your prejudices) and you'll notice that all I claimed is that remittances were a large factor in stopping the RoI's economy from tanking in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Of course i interpret facts i think we all do which is a point ive tried to make to you a few....times.

No, dearie, I'm specifically talking about you doing exactly what you accuse others of doing, rather than in the benign way you claim to.

 

[durruti02]

Why don't we have a look?

I said " " because what you propose means that some people who don't have the fallback position of a social welfare safety net (threadbare though it is) lose one of the few options they have of being able to feed and cloth their families, which is to sell their skills on the market."

You said
"to me it can mean nothing but that is is WRONG to deny immigrants jobs as they do not have a fallback"

Now, if you had the sense of a slightly brain-damaged baboon you'd realise I'm not saying it is wrong, but that it is sad that what you propose will cause people with few options to lose one of them.

You see, when I write something I generally mean what I say and am just about articulate enough to do so, so if I'd wanted to say that it's wrong to deny immigrants jobs, that's what I'd have said.

not 'wrong' but 'sad'??? wtf! .. pure semantics mate .. if it is sad it is wrong and you should oppose it .. have some bottle ..

on the other hand tbh i think i caught you out and you are digging yourself deeper

either way it is liberal .. most of capitalism is 'sad' and or 'wrong' .. the point is to develop, to defend, to create opposition. IF we genuinley want to help these people it will not be thinking it all so sad but creating a new movement out of who we have here and now ..

 

[durruti02]

A couple of things; trigger.

I swear for emphasis. Sometimes it's the only way to get you to pay attention to what's on the screen rather than what you interpret what's on the screen to mean.

I haven't ignored your rebuttals (by the way, a sweepingly general statement like "I don't witter, it's the left and anarchists wot witter" isn't a rebuttal). I've answered those worth answering.

Do everyone a favour, read the FAQs and learn how to format your replies properly.

Thanks awfully.

FAQs??? .. they seem to be about not doing 'personal abuse' as it happens .. maybe you should check them out ..

your swearing and abuse actually only emphaises your inadequate answers, sadly, as you too speak sense a lot of the time

 

[tbaldwin]

If you'd bothered to read what I'd read (rather than interpreting it through the filter of your prejudices) and you'll notice that all I claimed is that remittances were a large factor in stopping the RoI's economy from tanking in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

.

The question though is did the money sent back more than compensate for the amount of workers lost....

Still not sure whether you are really arguing that economic migration is a good thing for poorer countries or not?

 

[durruti02]

i really do find it strange this defence of immigration by remitances .. till the EU grants of the 7ts and 8ts , the south of italy, sicily, ireland, spain wherever .. were still piss poor ..

sure they made a bit of differrence but they did nothing for the community as a whole ..

again this is a sort of liberal arguement .. that nowt can be done to change the actual system so 'isn't it nice that these immigrants can at least send some money home' ..

any leftists/@ using this argument should be ashamed

as long as capitalism stays we have the heart break, the family break up, the pain, and the social and personal dislocation that immigration brings

immigration currently is nothing but for cheap labour and an attack on union w/c power, little that it is ..

 

[tbaldwin]

i really do find it strange this defence of immigration by remitances .. till the EU grants of the 7ts and 8ts , the south of italy, sicily, ireland, spain wherever .. were still piss poor ..

sure they made a bit of differrence but they did nothing for the community as a whole ..

again this is a sort of liberal arguement .. that nowt can be done to change the actual system so 'isn't it nice that these immigrants can at least send some money home' ..

any leftists/@ using this argument should be ashamed

as long as capitalism stays we have the heart break, the family break up, the pain, and the social and personal dislocation that immigration brings

immigration currently is nothing but for cheap labour and an attack on union w/c power, little that it is ..

Good post. I think people on the Left who argue for on your bike or on your plane policies should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[ViolentPanda]

FAQs??? .. they seem to be about not doing 'personal abuse' as it happens .. maybe you should check them out ..

Did you miss the bit about "robust language" being entirely acceptable?

your swearing and abuse actually only emphaises your inadequate answers, sadly, as you too speak sense a lot of the time

I speak sense but give inadequate answers?

That makes, well, NO sense.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The question though is did the money sent back more than compensate for the amount of workers lost....

In the case of Spain it definitely was at the time in question, given the 25% unemployment that was the norm until tourism took off in the 70s.
Ireland, imo, had much the same problem as Spain suffered; a broad agricultural base and fishing fleet, but not a great deal of heavy industry (which was mostly based in Ulster). In many cases so many workers left to seek work purely because there was bugger all for them to do in their home countries.

Still not sure whether you are really arguing that economic migration is a good thing for poorer countries or not?

I'm arguing that it isn't an absolute. In some ways it is good, in other ways it is bad, and you can't adopt one position without addressing the problems that the other position causes.

 

[tbaldwin]

I'm arguing that it isn't an absolute. In some ways it is good, in other ways it is bad, and you can't adopt one position without addressing the problems that the other position causes.

That really is a long winded way of saying...DONT KNOW......
Isnt it Sir Humphrey.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That really is a long winded way of saying...DONT KNOW......
Isnt it Sir Humphrey.

It's a way of saying that there are demonstrably good elements and bad elements.

As anyone with the same amount of intellect as a spoonful of lentil soup knows.

Not you though, it seems.

 

[tbaldwin]

It's a way of saying that there are demonstrably good elements and bad elements.

As anyone with the same amount of intellect as a spoonful of lentil soup knows.

Not you though, it seems.

Blah,Blah,Blah again, Sit on the fence again ......shout down insults at tbaldwin again....

 

[tbaldwin]

I speak sense but give inadequate answers?

That makes, well, NO sense.

So stop doing it then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Blah,Blah,Blah again, Sit on the fence again ......shout down insults at tbaldwin again....

So trying to be honest and accurate is "sitting on the fence" in the bizarre world you inhabit, is it?

You really are a complete tool, baldwin, A total spanner.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So stop doing it then.

Wow, such a deep and meaningful reply.

I can see why it took you a whole day to think it up.

 

[tbaldwin]

So trying to be honest and accurate is "sitting on the fence" in the bizarre world you inhabit, is it?

You really are a complete tool, baldwin, A total spanner.

No but giving an answer that your old bosses in the civil service would be proud of is..
"There are 2 sides to the arguement" eh,well who would have thought that you could have come out with something so deeeeep?.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No but giving an answer that your old bosses in the civil service would be proud of is..

Mmmm, so you know what my old boss likes and dislikes?
I hope you enjoyed the saence where you called up his ghost, balders. he's been dead for the last 11 years.

"There are 2 sides to the arguement" eh,well who would have thought that you could have come out with something so deeeeep?.

Except I didn't say that, did I?

I mean, I know that on Urban you display a limited understanding of anything more complex that scratching your lardy arse, so I suppose you might, if you were feeling exceptionally stupid, interpret what I said to mean that, but you would have to be exceptionally stupid to arrive at that conclusion.

So, are you?

 

[tbaldwin]

I mean, I know that on Urban you display a limited understanding of anything more complex that scratching your lardy arse, so I suppose you might, if you were feeling exceptionally stupid, interpret what I said to mean that, but you would have to be exceptionally stupid to arrive at that conclusion.

So, are you?

I dont know....I know though that you will be probably able to come up with some stats,evidence and facts from your bumper home office fact book to confirm that yes tbaldwin is much much less cleverish than you.....

 

[ViolentPanda]

I dont know....I know though that you will be probably able to come up with some stats,evidence and facts from your bumper home office fact book...

Never heard of that book. Is it something you own a copy of? If it is it might pay you to actually read it.

to confirm that yes tbaldwin is much much less cleverish than you.....

Why would I want to do that? If you're sad enough to think that anyone actually needs to measure themselves in terms of "cleverness" compared to you (or anyone else for that matter), then you've got problems, big ones.

I think you've got an inferiority complex, balders. You're always being sarky about how "clever" people are, always banging on about "intellectuals". Is it because you believe that people look down on you? Is that why you're so quick to resort to pigeon-holing people with your little labels?

 

[tbaldwin]

I think you've got an inferiority complex, balders. You're always being sarky about how "clever" people are, always banging on about "intellectuals". Is it because you believe that people look down on you? Is that why you're so quick to resort to pigeon-holing people with your little labels?

Quite interested in this. Its a kind of therapy im getting from you,i suppose..
Yes quite interesting!

 

[audiotech]

Mmmm!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Quite interested in this. Its a kind of therapy im getting from you,i suppose..
Yes quite interesting!

If the cap fits...

 

[tbaldwin]

Mmmm!

Thank you so much...Mr VP.I really have learnt a lot from the likes of you and 2 braincells nino....Its been a real education! I bet your front rooms look like libraries cos your both awwfully clever.