Caps on economic migrants

[SuburbanCasual]

Thats one of the reasons that the right and their allies on the Liberal/Left are so keen on it.They see the benefits of migration to themselves and dont really give a shit about the consequences for those less fortunate whether they live in Basildon or Bombay.

As long as the middle classes have cheap plumbers and aupairs they don't give a fuck. In fact they welcome it, a strong labour movement is bad for them.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

Because a shit wage is better than no wage to some peoples' thinking?

If we look at "the big picture" we see so-called "mass immigration" and that can be a scary thing (my own great-grandparents were at the receiving end of an immigration scare in late Victorian Britain), but that tends to obscure the fact that you don't have whole communities deciding to migrate, what you have is loads of skint and desperate individuals trying to make life better for themselves. I can't fault people for not wanting to live and/or die in shit conditions, in some cases for things as sad and pathetic as not being able to afford basic healthcare in their home country.

I don't have a problem with people wanting a better life for themselves, like my old man when he came to England from Ireland, or when he went on to Holland and Germany for a few years in the eighties.

I'm not blaming the working class immigrants at all, I'm blaming the liberals like you who see encouraging immigration as the be all and end all of our problems (that is the problems of the international working class ) which is based as tbaldwin has pointed out on a support for the spurious rightwing trickledown theory.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't have a problem with people wanting a better life for themselves, like my old man when he came to England from Ireland, or when he went on to Holland and Germany for a few years in the eighties.

I'm not blaming the working class immigrants at all, I'm blaming the liberals like you who see encouraging immigration as the be all and end all of our problems (that is the problems of the international working class ) which is based as tbaldwin has pointed out on a support for the spurious rightwing trickledown theory.

Want to show me where I'm "encouraging immigration as the be all and end all of our problems"?

Then you can go eat yourself a nice big shit sandwich when you can't.

I've said before that "no borders" might be a fine aspiration, but it isn't practical. I've tried to explain the purely legal point that we can't, under the undertakings we've signed up to as members of the EU, overly restrict immigration from EU countries, and I've made the point that you can't stop people from trying to put themselves in a situation where they're a bit further from the breadline than normal.

If that makes me someone who "encourages immigration blah blah blah" then frankly you're fucking doolally.


Oh, and don't call me a liberal. That's as insulting as me calling you a Swappie.

 

[durruti02]

Want to show me where I'm "encouraging immigration as the be all and end all of our problems"?

Then you can go eat yourself a nice big shit sandwich when you can't.

I've said before that "no borders" might be a fine aspiration, but it isn't practical. I've tried to explain the purely legal point that we can't, under the undertakings we've signed up to as members of the EU, overly restrict immigration from EU countries, and I've made the point that you can't stop people from trying to put themselves in a situation where they're a bit further from the breadline than normal.

If that makes me someone who "encourages immigration blah blah blah" then frankly you're fucking doolally.


Oh, and don't call me a liberal. That's as insulting as me calling you a Swappie.

but you continually try to couch this debate in terms of me/ TB / Cas being 'restrictive' .. when we all are more interested in fking up the BOSSES than ordianry people

do you support ordinary people demanding restrictions on cheap labour being used .. where they work?? where they live??

 

[ViolentPanda]

but you continually try to couch this debate in terms of me/ TB / Cas being 'restrictive' .. when we all are more interested in fking up the BOSSES than ordianry people

No, you've stated that you're interested in helping British "ordinary people", not that you're "more interested in fking up the BOSSES". Still, I suppose you feel the need to brandish your "class warrior" credentials occasionally.

do you support ordinary people demanding restrictions on cheap labour being used .. where they work?? where they live??

Do you support encouraging politicians who already fuck about with our rights to resile from agreements with the EU?

See, we can all ask "black and white" questions. The difficulty is in actually finding credible solutions to problems. Your solution seems to mean "devil take the hindmost", the very sort of social Darwinism you claim to be against.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Your views seem to be that trickle down economics can be a good thing...Margaret Thatcher etc etc believed the same thing...Or at least said they did.......

Like ViolentPanda said. Speaking of market forces does not neccessarily imply a trust in trickle down economics.

Market forces are simply market forces, just like the forces of nature are just forces; general mathmatical laws that can be applied in many different ways.

In the same way that the forces of nature can be used to do good as well as bad, market forces are also subject to how they are used. So, its not that I believe trickle down economics can be a good thing, its that I believe market forces can be a good thing when allowed to operate in the right context.

I'm not going to go into the details of what I believe that context should be (as it is going slighty off topic), but whilst we are not yet in a situation where that context exists, I see no other way of getting to that point unless we move beyond this divided, and therfore ruled over, state we are in as a planet.

Edited to add:

That last line sounded cheesy and I appologise.

I'm speaking more specifically in terms of European enlargement as a step towards more equality across borders. If only the workings of Europe could be more democratic.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . .
I'm speaking more specifically in terms of European enlargement as a step towards more equality across borders . . .

Huh? In what way is EU enlargement ("one size fits all", increased beurocracy etc) adhearing to economic laws?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Huh? In what way is EU enlargement ("one size fits all", increased beurocracy etc) adhearing to economic laws?

Free movement of people, free movement of capital. It's a step in the right direction ('step' being the operative word). Nothing is perfect but there IS good to be found in EU enlargement.

 

[durruti02]

No, you've stated that you're interested in helping British "ordinary people", not that you're "more interested in fking up the BOSSES". Still, I suppose you feel the need to brandish your "class warrior" credentials occasionally.

of course i support british workers .. this is where i live!!!! this is where the left/@ have gone so so so so wrong .. to you and theleft VP it has become WRONG to support british workers .. i live here .. so do you .. therefore YOU and I must support british workers .. what should divde us from the right is we see this as part of an internationalst perspective .. but internationalsim is nothing without power at home .. think global act local

Do you support encouraging politicians who already fuck about with our rights to resile from agreements with the EU?

sorry don't get Q

See, we can all ask "black and white" questions. The difficulty is in actually finding credible solutions to problems. Your solution seems to mean "devil take the hindmost", the very sort of social Darwinism you claim to be against.

again .. how on earth do you come to this conclusion????

.. as marx would have said the point is to change things ..

so we look at where we can create change create power .. amongst those who have nowhere to go??? who are probably unionised already .. or amongst those who are here (and chawarae teg to them) to make some money and can go if needs be .. yes yes yes we need to attempt to ogamise immigrants and welcome them into our communities .. BUT if we do not concentrate on wht we have here and now we throw out the very basis of our power

 

[ViolentPanda]

again .. how on earth do you come to this conclusion????

because what you propose means that some people who don't have the fallback position of a social welfare safety net (threadbare though it is) lose one of the few options they have of being able to feed and cloth their families, which is to sell their skills on the market.

.. as marx would have said the point is to change things ..

I suspect that Marx believed that change was meant to be for the better, rather than change for change's sake.

so we look at where we can create change create power .. amongst those who have nowhere to go??? who are probably unionised already .. or amongst those who are here (and chawarae teg to them) to make some money and can go if needs be .. yes yes yes we need to attempt to ogamise immigrants and welcome them into our communities .. BUT if we do not concentrate on wht we have here and now we throw out the very basis of our power

And your proposal is to radicalise people, to turn them on to political action...how?

Because it seems to me that you're saying that people need to takecontrol and responsibility (which I agree with), but that you think this should be done through reference to excluding certain sectors of the international working class.

 

[tbaldwin]

Because it seems to me that you're saying that people need to takecontrol and responsibility (which I agree with), but that you think this should be done through reference to excluding certain sectors of the international working class.

How do your Arguements a mixture of Nationalism and Liberalism address the plundering of poorer nations for most of their skilled workers?

 

[snorbury]

if you're a young Iranian, don't develop an interest in atomic physics, because Baldwin wouldn't want you to work abroad and would probably advocate bombing you if you stayed at home

 

[ViolentPanda]

How do your Arguements a mixture of Nationalism and Liberalism address the plundering of poorer nations for most of their skilled workers?

Are you saying my arguments are a "mixture of nationalism and liberalism"?

If so, please do illustrate how you arrived at that conclusion.

Just so that I can see you're not just using your usual tactic of shit-slinging.


BTW, as for "plundering", just what is the percentage of people "plundered" against the percentage of people who come here of their own free will?

 

[ViolentPanda]

if you're a young Iranian, don't develop an interest in atomic physics, because Baldwin would want you to work abroad and would probably advocate bombing you if you stayed at home

He is a bit inconsistent, isn't he?

 

[tbaldwin]

He is a bit inconsistent, isn't he?

Were you still pushing yourself as the consience of the nation when you were working for Michael Howard?

 

[tbaldwin]

Are you saying my arguments are a "mixture of nationalism and liberalism"?

Why dont you try and answer the question VP??

 

[ViolentPanda]

Were you still pushing yourself as the consience of the nation when you were working for Michael Howard?

How very predictable, tbaldwin going for a bit of smearing.

Ho hum, daft to expect anything better, I suppose.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why dont you try and answer the question VP??

You want me to answer a question to which you've attached an inaccurate premise and a slur?

Nah, I don't think so. I could answer the question, but I'd prefer for you to ask it again, shorn of your assumptions and prejudices, before I take a stab at answering it.

That's if you don't mind, oh voice of the common man?

 

[durruti02]

because what you propose means that some people who don't have the fallback position of a social welfare safety net (threadbare though it is) lose one of the few options they have of being able to feed and cloth their families, which is to sell their skills on the market.

so you support the bosses being able to use cheap labour as it woudl be unfair on those immigrants if they were unable to get work over here! .. what total and utter bollox!!! you want to come and speak to my colleagues and explain that they should give uptheir jobs for the sake of someone else??


I suspect that Marx believed that change was meant to be for the better, rather than change for change's sake.

if you had read the Marx and immigration thread you would have seen he railed against immigration being used by the bosses, both re irish in england and chinese in the US .. he understood that immigration is regularly used to attack labour organisation and that it is a CORRECT labour response to fight this if and when it occurs ..

And your proposal is to radicalise people, to turn them on to political action...how?

ok .. people are , as you well know totally and utterly cynical these days .. from my experiance and those of those i know .. and mates like haggy and cotton etc IT IS this apparrent betrayal of basics by the TU bosses and the left .. speciically groups like the SWP .. and obsession with minorities .. that people are reacting against .. people rather trust the BNP in a period like now than the left .. this is totally illogical BUTBUTBUT understandable as the left apperas SO usless and alien ..

so it is VITAL we are seen to defend those IN work THOSE in housing now rather thah this amorphose 'international w/c' .. we are at year/ground zero .. we need to give people some hope we need to fight for basics .. only then will we see th political action we crave


Because it seems to me that you're saying that people need to takecontrol and responsibility (which I agree with), but that you think this should be done through reference to excluding certain sectors of the international working class.

YES of course .. for now .. cos you start where you work .. where you live .. we are internationalist in our hearts but it means nothing if our unions are defeated and our streets soulless and powerless .. this is what the left and @s have lost have given up or do not understand .. tbh i think it is one of the curses of the middle class idology but that is another matter ..

.. WHEN we have power we can help the underpayed and exploited .. without power our opinions however right are meaningless useless ..

 

[ViolentPanda]

so you support the bosses being able to use cheap labour as it woudl be unfair on those immigrants if they were unable to get work over here! .. what total and utter bollox!!!

Where did I say that?

Ah, silly me. I didn't. You're hallucinating again.

...you want to come and speak to my colleagues and explain that they should give uptheir jobs for the sake of someone else??

I'm not asking them to give up their jobs, am I?

You're a bit of a drama queen, aren't you?

if you had read the Marx and immigration thread you would have seen he railed against immigration being used by the bosses, both re irish in england and chinese in the US .. he understood that immigration is regularly used to attack labour organisation and that it is a CORRECT labour response to fight this if and when it occurs ..

So you validate your stance by reference to a 150 year-old analysis? Good for you.
Got anything slightly more up-to-date that takes account of the last 150 yrs of technological advance, and the globalisation of capital?

ok .. people are , as you well know totally and utterly cynical these days .. from my experiance and those of those i know .. and mates like haggy and cotton etc IT IS this apparrent betrayal of basics by the TU bosses and the left .. speciically groups like the SWP .. and obsession with minorities .. that people are reacting against .. people rather trust the BNP in a period like now than the left .. this is totally illogical BUTBUTBUT understandable as the left apperas SO usless and alien ..

And why does it?
Because "the left" for the most part walked away from the working classes in the 1980s.
Because what remained of the left was more interested in power struggles than engaging with the grass roots.

so it is VITAL we are seen to defend those IN work THOSE in housing now rather thah this amorphose 'international w/c' .. we are at year/ground zero .. we need to give people some hope we need to fight for basics .. only then will we see th political action we crave

What IS vital is for people to defend themselves at a community level. What that means isn't your "year zero" of immigration control, it's whatever the community decides is best for the community.

What isn't vital is you[ defending them for your own reasons that might have fuck-all to do with their community.

YES of course .. for now .. cos you start where you work .. where you live .. we are internationalist in our hearts but it means nothing if our unions are defeated and our streets soulless and powerless .. this is what the left and @s have lost have given up or do not understand .. tbh i think it is one of the curses of the middle class idology but that is another matter ..

.. WHEN we have power we can help the underpayed and exploited .. without power our opinions however right are meaningless useless ..

More blah blah blah about "the left", I see.

The problem I have with your witterings is you're in favour of a "jam tomorrow" political scenario. The flip-side of such things is that "jam tomorrow" usually means "shit today", and it's very rare you ever get the jam in any case. It's all promises that good old fashioned populists would find themselves loathe to fulfil once they've tasted a bit of power.

 

[tbaldwin]

You want me to answer a question to which you've attached an inaccurate premise and a slur?

Nah, I don't think so. I could answer the question, but I'd prefer for you to ask it again, shorn of your assumptions and prejudices, before I take a stab at answering it.

That's if you don't mind, oh voice of the common man?

OK...How would you address the problem of poorer countries losing the workers they need most?

 

[ViolentPanda]

OK...How would you address the problem of poorer countries losing the workers they need most?

We've been down this road before.
Many of the skilled workers from developing countries have already served out "handcuff" contracts in their countries of origin, spending their first 5-10 yrs after qualification. That's why so many of the people who do migrate from their homelands are experienced. There's little that can be done to make them stay where they don't want to stay except;

a) subjecting them to some form of "internal exile",
or
b) incentivising them to stay.

Now given that the homeland often can't afford to incentivise them, and that denying someone freedom of movement is shady legally, then you're talking about the developed world incentivising people to stay in their own country.

Can you see that happening on anything except a very small scale (and probably done by NGOs rather than govts)? I can't.

You should also bear in mind (although I know you don't like to actually have to take fact into account) that although developing countries don't like losing skilled labour, they do like the hard currency in the form of remittances that such migration of labour brings, money that helps them develop, raise living standards, train more professionals and offset their "brain drains".

If you suddenly cease importing professional labour you're likely to cause far more economic and social problems in the homelands of the labourers than you'd solve here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

All very true^ Spain's economic explosion of the 1960s was funded in no small part by the millions of Spaniards working abroad and sending money back.

 

[tbaldwin]

You should also bear in mind (although I know you don't like to actually have to take fact into account) that although developing countries don't like losing skilled labour, they do like the hard currency in the form of remittances that such migration of labour brings, money that helps them develop, raise living standards, train more professionals and offset their "brain drains".

If you suddenly cease importing professional labour you're likely to cause far more economic and social problems in the homelands of the labourers than you'd solve here.

Well id guess Michael Howard would agree with you on that..It seems to fit in quite neatly with supporting trickle down economics and the free market.....

But talking of facts as i know you like to do...Maybe you helped spin them in the home office? Can you back up your wildly hopeless claim that if "you suddenly cease importing professional labour you're likely to cause far more economic and social problems in the homelands of the labourers than you'd solve here"

 

[tbaldwin]

All very true^ Spain's economic explosion of the 1960s was funded in no small part by the millions of Spaniards working abroad and sending money back.

Really? Good old Franco eh....Nothing to do with Tourism then?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well id guess Michael Howard would agree with you on that..It seems to fit in quite neatly with supporting trickle down economics and the free market.....

But talking of facts as i know you like to do...Maybe you helped spin them in the home office? Can you back up your wildly hopeless claim that if "you suddenly cease importing professional labour you're likely to cause far more economic and social problems in the homelands of the labourers than you'd solve here"

Those professionals will earn much more money in the rich world doing the same job and it is very likely that they will send some of it home, more than paying for their training and paying for others to be trained. It is a form of export, just as good as making things and selling them at a profit. That is not a wildly hopeless claim at all. It's backed up by hard economics.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Really? Good old Franco eh....Nothing to do with Tourism then?

Check your facts before saying stupid things like that. 6 million Spanish men went abroad to work in, for instance Switzerland, and they sent back a lot of money. Of course tourism helped, but that did not take off until the seventies, when the economic explosion was already under way. All of this is true, whatever you think of Franco.

 

[tbaldwin]

Those professionals will earn much more money in the rich world doing the same job and it is very likely that they will send some of it home, more than paying for their training and paying for others to be trained. It is a form of export, just as good as making things and selling them at a profit. That is not a wildly hopeless claim at all. It's backed up by hard economics.

Its shite.....Trickle down economics means poor countries train Doctors....Rich countries poach them.....And justify it saying they send some money home.....Not great if you need a Doctor.....Which is one reason why the likes of the W.H.O and Nelson Mandela spoke out against Rich countries taking desperately needed Health proffesionalls from poor African and Asian countries....

 

[tbaldwin]

Check your facts before saying stupid things like that. 6 million Spanish men went abroad to work in, for instance Switzerland, and they sent back a lot of money. Of course tourism helped, but that did not take off until the seventies, when the economic explosion was already under way. All of this is true, whatever you think of Franco.

Facts....Oh dear......
Your interpretation is open to question.....Look at how Migration effects countries,look closer to home to Ireland centuries of migrants sent money home....And look at what effect that had?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Its shite.....Trickle down economics means poor countries train Doctors....Rich countries poach them.....And justify it saying they send some money home.....Not great if you need a Doctor.....Which is one reason why the likes of the W.H.O and Nelson Mandela spoke out against Rich countries taking desperately needed Health proffesionalls from poor African and Asian countries....

I agree that it is a shitty situation, but what are you suggesting, that rich countries should refuse entry to those wishing to go there and fill a vacancy that needs filling? Whose fault is it that the extra money isn't used to train more doctors?