Canterbury Arms, Brixton to be turned into flats - planning application

[colacubes]

The change of use has already been agreed. So for the development not to happen will depend on legitimate planning issues i.e. the design, impact on local amenities, impact on transport etc etc And petitions will make bugger all difference. People will need to actually object to the planning application when it happens. And then turn up to the meeting and ask to speak about the application. I've been at planning meetings before and any applications that didn't have objectors or supporters was waved through on officers advice.

Tbh - the best that will happen is the closure is delayed. It's highly unlikely it will be stopped altogether.

The other things is to look at local listing as a community asset - might be worth speaking to someone from the George IV campaign. Even then it would only kick in if the building was sold on again I think. Tricky Skills might be able to shed more light on that?

 

[CH1]

I'm trying to find out more about this May Developments (Brixton) Limited bunch.

The Brixton Buzz link to the May Developments Canterbury Arms webpage doesn't work now - it is at
http://www.maydevelopmentsbrixton.blogspot.co.uk/
The PR firm seems very high powered: http://www.camarguepr.com/ and they claim St Modwen (owner of the Elephant and Castle shopping centre) as a client.

I wonder whether the pub is owned on lease from Lambeth Council. If the lease were expiring that would explain developers sniffing around apparently with co-operation of the council. The change of use application was approved on 17th April BTW.

My idea about the lease is pure speculation - but it would be logical. After all the the car park and the Brixton Rec sites must have been compulsory purchased back in the 1960s or 1970s. The Royal Vauxhall Tavern freeholder is Lambeth Council - an area which has always similarly been on the threshold of major redevelopment.

What we need is a member with business access to the Land Registry (or a mole in Planning & Regeneration).

 

[Rushy]

What we need is a member with business access to the Land Registry (or a mole in Planning & Regeneration).

It is owned by Conway Taverns but May Developments, or whatever they are called has registered an option. I.e. They have probably paid an amount to CT for the right to purchase the property for an agreed sum in a defined period. They can then apply for planning permission and go through with the purchase if the application is successful or not it if rejected. I'd imagine CT had no idea that an 11 storey building might be possible on the site.

 

[Tricky Skills]

There's no harm in applying to Lambeth Council to have the Canterbury listed as an Asset of Community Value, as was the case for the George. Does anyone know the precise details of the ownership of the building? Is it being bought by the developer? If the sale has yet to go through, then now is the time to apply for listed status. This will give the 21 names needed on the Right to Bid application a six month moratorium to try and buy the pub, should it go on the market. What made it tough for the George was that no sale was involved, simply a change of lease.

Disclaimer: I work for Locality. The advice that we always give community groups is to use Right to Bid if there is a realistic chance of a local group taking over the pub and running it successfully. To use the legislation as a blocking mechanism will frustrate the developers, but it won't help the prospect of a community pub being achieved.

Getting listed with Lambeth Council should be simple. It's a pub - it offers 'social well being'

As The George found out, policy is everything though when it comes to planning. Localism and... co-operation aren't even a close second.

Happy to help out further.

 

[Rushy]

No sale has been registered yet - only granting of an option (presumably to buy) - so listing could prevent sale to the developer if funds could be raised to buy. Unless CT were completely unaware of the site value when negotiating with the developers the site will be very expensive indeed.

 

[CH1]

It is owned by Conway Taverns but May Developments, or whatever they are called has registered an option. I.e. They have probably paid an amount to CT for the right to purchase the property for an agreed sum in a defined period. They can then apply for planning permission and go through with the purchase if the application is successful or not it if rejected. I'd imagine CT had no idea that an 11 storey building might be possible on the site.

Didn't know there were options on property deals - but that sounds v plausible.

 

[CH1]

I predict a residential conversion for International House btw.

I am surprised they didn't turn International House into an hotel years ago when they had Kunick Leisure as their "partners" running the Rec. It's all interconnected and Kunick also managed hotels.
So judging by Courtenay House etc you're probably right on that one.

 

[Tricky Skills]

Now would be the time then for any community group to consider a listing. Lambeth Council has to make a decision within six weeks of receiving the form.

My Community Rights can offer any immediate advice about possible funding options.

Once again - 21 names is easy. Thinking it through and the what if... is what any group needs to consider ASAP.

A reminder of what was achieved with The Ivy House over in Southwark:

 

[Rushy]

Didn't know there were options on property deals - but that sounds v plausible.

It's on the land registry charges register - dated July 2012.

 

[editor]

Update. It's going to 30 metres high. Would that make it 9/10 storeys high?

The building will be approximately 30 metres tall. The existing building will be demolished and replaced with a redesigned building that looks to incorporate many of the architectural features found around Brixton. The details of the design along with images will be on display at the exhibition.

Not happy about them demolishing the current building. It's fine piece of architecture.

 

[Rushy]

What

Now would be the time then for any community group to consider a listing. Lambeth Council has to make a decision within six weeks of receiving the form.

My Community Rights can offer any immediate advice about possible funding options.

Once again - 21 names is easy. Thinking it through and the what if... is what any group needs to consider ASAP.

What happens if a community group successfully buys it and then it fails? Can they sell it?

 

[Crispy]

Update. It's going to 30 metres high. Would that make it 9/10 storeys high?

Yep. I'll have to check, but that's shorter than International House I think. Residential floors are usaully shorter than commercial.

I've checked. By counting bricks, the 11 floor Intl. House is 38m high, so the residential would be about as high as a 9 floor version.

 

[editor]

The more I think about it, the more unhappy I am about them demolishing that building.

 

[Tricky Skills]

What

What happens if a community group successfully buys it and then it fails? Can they sell it?

The group would have the same commercial responsibilities as any other business. Ultimately bankruptcy could be an option, although how this would work out with various grants and funding streams involved, I'm not entirely sure.

Hence the importance of coming up with a business plan first, rather than just a knee jerk reason for stopping development per se.

 

[boy about town]

I believe they are selling up, cashing in. After many years in the area they probably see it as a time to move on, perhaps retire with a load of cash as they own the pub. Makes sense for them. Back to Ireland, money for the kids. Irish publicans never really expected to see themselves retiring in England, especially the ones that bought freehold/ property. It's their retirement fund and given how places like Brixton are now.
Cashing up make a lot of sense!

This is completely incorrect and a long way from the truth !

 

[leanderman]

The more I think about it, the more unhappy I am about them demolishing that building.

It could be worse, it could be a Tesco.

And we need housing. Lots of it.

Apparently shared equity too and a 2,000 sq ft community space.

 

[editor]

Apparently shared equity too and a 2,000 sq ft community space.

Only an unspecified “proportion” of the apartments will be shared equity.

 

[twistedAM]

Only an unspecified “proportion” of the apartments will be shared equity.

Wasn't that what Barratt's said in that new place next to Granville Arcade?

 

[leanderman]

Of course

 

[Rushy]

The group would have the same commercial responsibilities as any other business. Ultimately bankruptcy could be an option, although how this would work out with various grants and funding streams involved, I'm not entirely sure.

Hence the importance of coming up with a business plan first, rather than just a knee jerk reason for stopping development per se.

Fair comment. I haven't been in there for more than ten years and am more interested in the principle than in this particular case.

 

[Dexter Deadwood]

Spoke to Brian this afternoon; he was true to form.
Went a bit racist midway through the conversation blaming Somalis for breeding like rabbits and buying up all the property in North London. That's why working class folk cannot get housed in Brixton. Even by his standards that's bonkers.
Fact is the whole step family are racist, it's one of the many reasons i stopped drinking in that Old Bill shit hole.
It has never been part of the community other than feeding the old school Canterbury Crescent alcoholics, most of whom are now dead because of alcohol, those that survived have been banned and/or drink in The Beehive. It's only the Police and passing trade from The Academy that keep them floating.

The green space at the back of Westgate Court, which forms part of Canterbury Gardens Estate, will be converted into a communal garden for the new residents of the proposed development at the expense of current tenants and leaseholders, none of whom can gain access to it anyway. Moreover, they have not access to it for at least the last fifteen years.
Maybe the 50% of tenants of Westgate Court who have not exercised their "Right To Buy" should join the other 50% of spivs who have already cashed in. They won't have to wait five years to exercise their right to sell.
Word is Westgate Court is earmarked to be demolished. Call it "concrete cancer", call it what you like.
All of this explains why proposed essential external works to the structure of Westgate Court, which is falling apart, have been delayed and frustrated by certain leaseholders of Westgate Court and Lambeth Council.
International House will be converted into residential property. That's nailed on! They have never found a purpose for that building that filled it with enough workers.

Brixton has never been a village, never needed a village. We don't need the village people but they will keep coming! They need to come, they are being encouraged to come! Someone is making a shed load of money somewhere and council tenants in council homes are being forced out of central Brixton.

Now, that's what i call class war!

Are you up for it?

 

[gabi]

He is racist in an old school way. I noticed that the first few times I went there. He would stand at the door and bar certain people from entering, saying the place was full, when it clearly wasnt. He did have issues with Muslim Somalis just coming in to watch football, obviously without buying beer due to their religion. I think that was the main issue. But I think it's also a generational thing. I know thats an easy excuse, but for better or for worse I know some older people who are good people but have fucked up backwards views on race.

He also once threw me out because New Zealand (im a kiwi) thrashed Ireland in the rugby

 

[Winot]

Sounds dreadful.

 

[gabi]

No, quite to the contrary. It was a brilliant pub. Particularly when he wasn't about tho tbh.

 

[nagapie]

The only good thing in that is the pulling down of international house, a more horrible, depressing building I've never come across.

 

[Dexter Deadwood]

The only good thing in that is the pulling down of international house, a more horrible, depressing building I've never come across.

It's not being "pulled down"

 

[nagapie]

It's not being "pulled down"

That's a shame.

 

[Mr Retro]

That's the saddest news I've heard for a long time. It was our local when we lived in Brixton and we always make the effort to get down there when we are back in London. When it closes we probably won't bother to go to Brixton now.

Brian and his family did more for the local community in Brixton than anybody else I met in the 9 years I lived there. All of it quietly and without fuss. Probably less so in the last 6-8 years than before that as those people he helped and who needed his help die and move away.

Everybody who walked in the door was treated the same, if you treated his pub and staff with respect you were extended the same courtesy. If you did not you were out on your ear and not in a gentle way.

It will be sadly missed
I'll be travelling to Brixton for the closing party

 

[gabi]

Not my recollection at all in terms of his sense of inclusivity, but there ya go. Great pub though. Been going there for almost 15 years pretty much every week to watch United. I love Brian's unofficial 'commentary' And his hand crafted signs warning people not to use mobile phones and recommending how many pints per half they should consume.

 

[Thaw]

Not my recollection at all in terms of his sense of inclusivity, but there ya go. Great pub though. Been going there for almost 15 years pretty much every week to watch United. I love Brian's unofficial 'commentary' And his hand crafted signs warning people not to use mobile phones and recommending how many pints per half they should consume.

What is the target pintage? I reckon I would normally do max 3 per game - 1 just before kick-off, 1 just before half-time and then 1 for the last half-hour