Can I legitimately refuse to work in a place I don’t feel safe or well in?

[Orang Utan]

I currently work one shift a week in a temporary site - a rented shop unit that has no central heating. The only heating is from an under-desk little oil radiator thing on wheels that radiates heat for approximately 2 inches and is therefore next to useless. I’m required to sit at this desk all day.
I’m a cyclist and there is nowhere to dry clothes adequately, so on wet days I get back into freezing cold clothes to get home.
I have been advised to get public transport on these occasions but my nerves wouldn’t tolerate it and anyway my choice to commute by bike should be respected and encouraged instead of discouraged.
It is also a sensorily challenging environment, esp for someone neurodiverse, like me, who finds bright lights hard to endure all day. I often get blinded by direct sunshine in the mornings cos of the placement of the desk.
I also work on a day when the shopping centre tests all of the alarms - this goes on for an hour or two and can be unbearable.
Last week I had to go home early as I had been hyperventilating all morning as the alarms, the cold and dampness, the bright light and a seething resentment all converged into a perfect storm of NOPE and I took several days off with stress and anxiety.
One of the things that set me off re: simmering resentment towards my employers was that as soon as I arrived I was badgered by customers to provide some hot water for the tea and coffee station that’s been set up as part of a Warm Spaces scheme to provide a warm and welcoming sanctuary for customers struggling to pay their bills. While this is a commendable scheme that I have no complaint about, it made me brood angrily as I felt my employers can’t even look after their staff let alone our customers and that the Warm Space was nothing but a lie at this branch.
I put in a complaint about health and safety and am going to tell them tomorrow that I won’t work there until they provide a safer and more comfortable environment. Do I have a right to do this?

 

[MickiQ]

I currently work one shift a week in a temporary site - a rented shop unit that has no central heating. The only heating is from an under-desk little oil radiator thing on wheels that radiates heat for approximately 2 inches and is therefore next to useless. I’m required to sit at this desk all day.
I’m a cyclist and there is nowhere to dry clothes adequately, so on wet days I get back into freezing cold clothes to get home.
I have been advised to get public transport on these occasions but my nerves wouldn’t tolerate it and anyway my choice to commute by bike should be respected and encouraged instead of discouraged.
It is also a sensorily challenging environment, esp for someone neurodiverse, like me, who finds bright lights hard to endure all day. I often get blinded by direct sunshine in the mornings cos of the placement of the desk.
I also work on a day when the shopping centre tests all of the alarms - this goes on for an hour or two and can be unbearable.
Last week I had to go home early as I had been hyperventilating all morning as the alarms, the cold and dampness, the bright light and a seething resentment all converged into a perfect storm of NOPE and I took several days off with stress and anxiety.
One of the things that set me off re: simmering resentment towards my employers was that as soon as I arrived I was badgered by customers to provide some hot water for the tea and coffee station that’s been set up as part of a Warm Spaces scheme to provide a warm and welcoming sanctuary for customers struggling to pay their bills. While this is a commendable scheme that I have no complaint about, it made me brood angrily as I felt my employers can’t even look after their staff let alone our customers and that the Warm Space was nothing but a lie at this branch.
I put in a complaint about health and safety and am going to tell them tomorrow that I won’t work there until they provide a safer and more comfortable environment. Do I have a right to do this?

Absolutely yes there are all sorts of laws covering safe working conditions. There is a minimum temperature requirement for a start so I would point that out to them straightaway.

 

[redsquirrel]

A workplace has to meet safety requirements and an employer has to make reasonable adjustments for any staff occupational health (OH) issues but (AFAIAK) there is no requirement for an employer to ensure a workplace is one that a staff member feels well, or even safe, in.

Do you have a OH report or a flexible working regime?
Workplaces do have to have a "reasonable" minimum temperature, 16 C for an office type environment.

You, or your union rep, can ask for a H&S report on your present workplace but unless there is some H&S issue and/or your employer is not making some sort of reasonable adjustment then I strongly doubt they are breaking to law to such an extent that you can legally refuse to work there, Sorry.

What I would say is

1. Talk to your union rep
2. If you do not have a OH assessment, ask for one
3. Ask for the H&S report for the place. Get them to make sure it passes the minimum temperature requirement at least.

 

[Orang Utan]

Absolutely yes there are all sorts of laws covering safe working conditions. There is a minimum temperature requirement for a start so I would point that out to them straightaway.

I don’t think there is a minimum temperature from my investigations, at least not straightforwardly. How would it work if you worked outdoors for a living?
There are regulations about school classrooms and warehouses but even with warehouses it depends on what sort of work you are doing.

 

[cesare]

I suggest that you ask your workplace to carry out a risk assessment for your environment and a stress risk assessment for you.

Does your workplace know that you are ND and is it the type of ND that is a disorder?

 

[redsquirrel]

I don’t think there is a minimum temperature from my investigations, at least not straightforwardly. How would it work if you worked outdoors for a living?
There are regulations about school classrooms and warehouses but even with warehouses it depends on what sort of work you are doing.

There are not minimum and maximum temperatures but workplace temperatures must be reasonable.

Workplace temperatures

There is no law for a minimum or maximum temperature, but during working hours the temperature in all workplaces inside buildings must be reasonable

www.gov.uk

16C is often given as the guidance for office type areas, but it is not an absolute. Still if the temperature is lower than 16C I think you'd have a very strong case for the workplace to be unsuitable as is stands at present

 

[Orang Utan]

A workplace has to meet safety requirements and an employer has to make reasonable adjustments for any staff occupational health (OH) issues but (AFAIAK) there is no requirement for an employer to ensure a workplace is one that a staff member feels well, or even safe, in.

Do you have a OH report or a flexible working request?
Workplaces do have to have a "reasonable" minimum temperature, 16 C for an office type environment.

You, or your union rep, can ask for a H&S report on your present workplace but unless there is some H&S issue and/or your employer is not making some sort of reasonable adjustment then I'm not hopeful for you OU, Sorry.

Thanks, have got some of that in hand already - got a stress risk assessment next week and am having a meeting in a fortnight with managers and union rep about my sickness (stage 2 absence review) but my rep hasn’t responded to my request for a chat beforehand, so is unaware of recent developments. Dunno what else I can do to get their attention aside from sending a regrettable angry message to them. I might not have had to start this thread if they’d responded to my request for advice ahead of the meeting.

 

[Orang Utan]

I suggest that you ask your workplace to carry out a risk assessment for your environment and a stress risk assessment for you.

Does your workplace know that you are ND and is it the type of ND that is a disorder?

Yes, have already had two WCAs - the first which was totally unacceptable, I had to complain (assessor c&p’d someone else’s assessment and didn’t even bother to change the names - which is an egregious breach of GDPR amongst other things) - I’ve asked for a third one because literally no reasonable adjustments have been made yet and I would like to request for more, such as allowing me more time off before going though the potentially disciplinary absence review process.

 

[redsquirrel]

Thanks, have got some of that in hand already - got a stress risk assessment next week and am having a meeting in a fortnight with managers and union rep about my sickness (stage 2 absence review) but my rep hasn’t responded to my request for a chat beforehand, so is unaware of recent developments. Dunno what else I can do to get their attention aside from sending a regrettable angry message to them. I might not have had to start this thread if they’d responded to my request for advice ahead of the meeting.

Sounds like you are doing the stuff that you need to. I'm not sure there is much more you can do, besides sending a follow up email to your rep.

You might want to talk to your rep about submitting a formal flexible working application, that might help you.

 

[cesare]

Yes, have already had two WCAs - the first which was totally unacceptable, I had to complain (assessor c&p’d someone else’s assessment and didn’t even bother to change the names - which is an egregious breach of GDPR amongst other things) - I’ve asked for a third one because literally no reasonable adjustments have been made yet and I would like to request for more, such as allowing me more time off before going though the potentially disciplinary absence review process.

It sounds as though you have this in hand, but I'm sorry that they are making you jump through hoops. I'm sure you have, but just checking that you are making sure any reasonable adjustment request is put in writing e.g. email. Keep a record of the exchanges.

Don't forget that you can make a claim for disability discrimination eg failure to make reasonable adjustments without leaving employment.

Have you checked the absence policy for provisions for people who are disabled? Actually, that's another point - has your employer conceded that you are disabled for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010?

 

[Orang Utan]

Sounds like you are doing the stuff that you need to. I'm not sure there is much more you can do, besides sending a follow up email to your rep.

You might want to talk to your rep about submitting a formal flexible working application, that might help you.

Thanks
What does a formal flexible working application entail? Flexible for whom?
They already have a thing they call flexitime which is in fact forced overtime and is only flexible from the employer’s point of view.
I have refused to take part in it, which has pissed off some colleagues but I’m not turning up to work earlier than my shift requires me to. I can’t even manage to get there on time a lot anyway! If they need people to start 15 minutes earlier than their shifts, they need to change the shift patterns, not force people into coming in earlier than their contracted hours. At the moment our shifts officially start at the same time we open our doors to the public, which is why they want us to come in earlier. and

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Minimum indoors temperature for office type environment is 16 degrees.

Workplace temperatures

There is no law for a minimum or maximum temperature, but during working hours the temperature in all workplaces inside buildings must be reasonable

www.gov.uk

 

[cesare]

Rather than send a regrettable angry message, focus on putting together a chronology (dates and incidents with relevant documents)

 

[Elpenor]

Thanks
What does a formal flexible working application entail? Flexible for whom?
They already have a thing they call flexitime which is in fact forced overtime and is only flexible from the employer’s point of view.
I have refused to take part in it, which has pissed off some colleagues but I’m not turning up to work earlier than my shift requires me to. I can’t even manage to get there on time a lot anyway! If they need people to start 15 minutes earlier than their shifts, they need to change the shift patterns, not force people into coming in earlier than their contracted hours. At the moment our shifts officially start at the same time we open our doors to the public, which is why they want us to come in earlier. and

A flexible work agreement is not the same thing as flexitime.

 

[Orang Utan]

A flexible work agreement is not the same thing as flexitime.

I didn’t think so, but the flexi thing reminded me of another grievance/simmering resentment towards my employers

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Minimum indoors temperature for office type environment is 16 degrees.

Workplace temperatures

There is no law for a minimum or maximum temperature, but during working hours the temperature in all workplaces inside buildings must be reasonable

www.gov.uk

it appears from that as though it's recommendation not law. i had the vague idea that if temperature was not up to standard within X time of normal work start time, then you could legitimately walk out.

either that was never the case, or it got 'modernised' some time in the last 20 years or so (it's a while since i've been a union rep and haven't had need to think about it for a while.)

and of course it only applies / ever applied to some jobs / workplaces so might be different for a retail worker in a conventional shop and a retail worker in an open sided market hall sort of thing.

 

[Elpenor]

I didn’t think so, but the flexi thing reminded me of another grievance/simmering resentment towards my employers

that sounds worth highlighting then as I think that’s a legitimate issue if it takes 15 minutes to ready the location to be able to serve customers from minute 1 of your opening hours.

But is there something to be said for focussing on one thing at a time as an employer will try and blur the issue - you admit yourself your punctuality isn’t always ideal, so maybe work could use that against you?

 

[redsquirrel]

Thanks
What does a formal flexible working application entail? Flexible for whom?

For you.

A flexible working arrangement is basically a formal agreement between the employer and employee for the normal practice of the employer to be modified for that employee. It can consist of a number of things - the employee working from home, working compressed hours, working part time. There will generally be a trial period before the arrangement is confirmed, or not.

There is no requirement on an employer to accept an FWA and it might not be of use to you. But it is probably worth discussing with your rep and see if there is anything in it to help you.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

it appears from that as though it's recommendation not law. i had the vague idea that if temperature was not up to standard within X time of normal work start time, then you could legitimately walk out.

either that was never the case, or it got 'modernised' some time in the last 20 years or so (it's a while since i've been a union rep and haven't had need to think about it for a while.)

and of course it only applies / ever applied to some jobs / workplaces so might be different for a retail worker in a conventional shop and a retail worker in an open sided market hall sort of thing.

Lots of work regs are non statutory guidelines but there’s usually something that is statutory that the guideline pertains to. For example PAT testing isn’t statutory but there’s a statutory regulation it pertains to in the electricity at work act about employers maintaining plant and equipment with periodic testing etc which means that actually it is statutory.

 

[Orang Utan]

that sounds worth highlighting then as I think that’s a legitimate issue if it takes 15 minutes to ready the location to be able to serve customers from minute 1 of your opening hours.

But is there something to be said for focussing on one thing at a time as an employer will try and blur the issue - you admit yourself your punctuality isn’t always ideal, so maybe work could use that against you?

Well quite, but this is also something they should have responded to as a reasonable adjustment - I have ADHD and am often late due to the ‘time-blindness’ that is a symptom of it. I am rarely late due to not getting up on time. I get up three hours before I have to get to work, and yet can still get distracted enough to leave on time. I was even late once cos I was distracted by a large mushroom in the woods on the way to work

 

[Athos]

Practically, what reasonable adjustments do you think they should make to accommodate you?

I think you'll be in a stronger position if you can specify what you want e.g. more effective heating, moving the desk, a space out back with a clothes drying rack, etc.

The alarms is a difficult one. Maybe some ear plugs?

I think you might just have to put up with the customers asking for water for the coffees.

 

[The39thStep]

There are not minimum and maximum temperatures but workplace temperatures must be reasonable.

Workplace temperatures

There is no law for a minimum or maximum temperature, but during working hours the temperature in all workplaces inside buildings must be reasonable

www.gov.uk

16C is often given as the guidance for office type areas, but it is not an absolute. Still if the temperature is lower than 16C I think you'd have a very strong case for the workplace to be unsuitable as is stands at present

Union wise we always argued for about 16c indoors. Funnily enough, it was a manager at Public Health who gave us the advice.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m struggling to think why alarm tests should last for an hour. Unless they have several different ones to complete. Our fire alarm tests last seconds. Any longer and everyone would evacuate.

 

[what]

I don’t think there is a minimum temperature from my investigations, at least not straightforwardly. How would it work if you worked outdoors for a living?
There are regulations about school classrooms and warehouses but even with warehouses it depends on what sort of work you are doing.

Have a read of this. 16 degrees min but must be comfortable. If your sitting behind a desk all day 16 is to low.

Workplace health, safety and welfare - L24

Guidance on the Regulations, which covers a variety of precise health and safety at work issues.

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[weltweit]

Orang Utan is there some UC rule that you are tied into or something? Because otherwise I can't see the point in continuing to go to a job that makes you miserable.

 

[Elpenor]

Well quite, but this is also something they should have responded to as a reasonable adjustment - I have ADHD and am often late due to the ‘time-blindness’ that is a symptom of it. I am rarely late due to not getting up on time. I get up three hours before I have to get to work, and yet can still get distracted enough to leave on time. I was even late once cos I was distracted by a large mushroom in the woods on the way to work

I don’t know the solution to this, but it sounds like the location is the main focus, unless you spin your argument is that the challenges the location presents exacerbates your adhd and hence causes punctuality issues.

I suppose you need to decide what your ideal solution is - to not work at this location?

 

[Orang Utan]

Orang Utan is there some UC rule that you are tied into or something? Because otherwise I can't see the point in continuing to go to a job that makes you miserable.

what's a UC rule? I love my job most of the time - just not that shift - I have put in a request to only work at the venue that is good for me. It may be something I can request in the next WCA.
Anyway, there aren't many jobs that I want to do available elsewhere at the moment, nor are there likely to be in the future, unfortunately

 

[Pickman's model]

Thanks, have got some of that in hand already - got a stress risk assessment next week and am having a meeting in a fortnight with managers and union rep about my sickness (stage 2 absence review) but my rep hasn’t responded to my request for a chat beforehand, so is unaware of recent developments. Dunno what else I can do to get their attention aside from sending a regrettable angry message to them. I might not have had to start this thread if they’d responded to my request for advice ahead of the meeting.

If you can't actually discuss this with your union rep over the next week you should ask for the meeting to be rescheduled for after you have had a discussion with your rep, unless you're wholly confident in the case you'll put on the day.

 

[Orang Utan]

If you can't actually discuss this with your union rep over the next week you should ask for the meeting to be rescheduled for after you have had a discussion with your rep, unless you're wholly confident in the case you'll put on the day.

Aye, my meeting isn’t til the 15th, so I will be pressing for at least a telephone call next week. I really need to update them on a few things as well as seek advice but my rep seems to think they only need meetings when everyone is at the table. They once had a meeting with management without me being there cos of bad communication. I registered my dismay and they did apologise but I often wonder whose side they are on.

 

[Orang Utan]

I don’t know the solution to this, but it sounds like the location is the main focus, unless you spin your argument is that the challenges the location presents exacerbates your adhd and hence causes punctuality issues.

I suppose you need to decide what your ideal solution is - to not work at this location?

That’s what I’ve already asked for.