Brown's speech

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Most certainly. You inherit them from your parents and bequeath them to your children.

They're not negotiable.

i mean when david cameron and gordon brown say it as in 'british values'

 

[Azrael]

Things like liberty under the law, consitutional monarchy, restraint and respect for private life are all British values. Eccentricity especially so. Given that both Mr Cameron and Mr Brown are cringing conformists who spend their time urinating over such things from a great height, I don't think that's what they have in mind.

 

[Android]

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown puppets for America. The UK will be attacking Iran real soon. New Labour will be remembered for three illegal wars.

Sadly David Cameron will be just another puppet as well.

None of the three main parties are worth voting for.

 

[Android]

I wonder what secret deals Cameron has promised Rupert Murdoch?

 

[Peter Dow]

So you think you know politics?

Sarah Brown to introduce him again....

Trivial Pursuit question. Category: Politics

Which Condi video did Sarah Brown appear in as "The Lady in Red"?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Things like liberty under the law, consitutional monarchy, restraint and respect for private life are all British values. Eccentricity especially so. Given that both Mr Cameron and Mr Brown are cringing conformists who spend their time urinating over such things from a great height, I don't think that's what they have in mind.

i think a constitutional monarchy is a contradiction in terms, and im ambivalent about the concept of 'liberty under the law' but that sounds better.

when they're talking about 'british values' it sounds really hollow, and it's like a buzzword NL use they use when talking about integration and other shit that doesn't matter

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

The UK will be attacking Iran real soon.

Nah. That's off the cards.

But I'm sure by November the warmongering, and psyops, and brinkmanship, and propaganda, and conspiracies, and smokes and mirrors will be in full swing again. Because that's what happens every year about this time now.

 

[Azrael]

i think a constitutional monarchy is a contradiction in terms, and im ambivalent about the concept of 'liberty under the law' but that sounds better.

A monarch that isn't absolute, but limited by the constitution. Where's the contradiction?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

we don't have a constitution that's why the monarchy are there

 

[Azrael]

Of course we have a constitution. We just have an uncodified one.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

i.e not much of one

we still have this making decisions

http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/page1.asp

 

[_angel_]

they certainly won't do that i don't think.

firstly Care Homes for Children are few and far between these days and secondly they cost up to £4,000 per week to care for a child.

Although £4k a week is for a bat shit kid who needs 2:1 i admit.

Supported Housing would be much much cheaper.

i may be wrong of course, this is just ime through work.

I thought they kicked 16 year olds in care out on their own anyhow?

I wonder how long it will take for a kid of a 16 year old to receive a permanent home with their mum now, after they have to basically live in one room hostels for at least two years? Is this really good for the child, or does no one care as long as they're getting a good kicking?

 

[Kaka Tim]

But the flaws in the old system could have been remedied without abandoning it entirely. The "if it feels good, **** it" replacement, where everything is right so long as you obtain consent, has led to broken homes and serial boyfriends, with feral children spiralling into lives of despair and crime because their mothers are unable to cope.

Thats crap. That situation comes about essentaily because of economic conditions - not 'immorality'. Young women with limited opportunities, poor education, low self esteem, little or no control over their lives and living in an environment where all these negatives are daily reinforced are more likely to have children young as well as developing serious problems with drugs and alchohol and having chaotic personal realtionships. Their kids then inherit the same shit. Adding 'shame' into that mix is not going to help at all - it certinaly didn't help in Victorian Britain where the conditions - and levels of 'immorality' amongst the poor - were many many times worse then today.
There are millions of kids born to young single mothers who grow up to be perfectly decent people - but absoulutely no thanks to the back to basics brigade .

All this chest beating about the lower orders breeding a generation of 'feral' ASBO fodder seem to me a less than opaque way of revisting Kieth Josephs fondness for eugenics as way of preventing the underclasss from 'over breeding'.

 

[trevhagl]

I wonder what secret deals Cameron has promised Rupert Murdoch?

to be even more brutal to the working class and disabled than Brown...

 

[Giles]

Fascinating.

I have it on good authority that Muslims are the root cause of terrorism.

That said, let's stick to one issue at a time.

Most muslims are not terrorists.

However, most terrorists are muslims. Or claim to be.

Giles..

 

[Kaka Tim]

Most muslims are not terrorists.

However, most terrorists are muslims. Or claim to be.

Giles..

ETA, RIRA, Tamil Tigers and dozens of other armed sepratist groups around the globe all muslims are they?

 

[trevhagl]

all this bollocks about values just makes you hate him even more, i mean MY values are standing up for the poorest in society, sticking together with yer workmates, fighting bureaucracy , not grassing on or being jealous of, those worse off than you etc

very different values to what Mr Brown's are i imagine

 

[_angel_]

ooh marvellous, we've got to 'people like you' now. And what exactly do you know about 'people like me' untethered, seeing as you've pretty much admitted you don't know any single mothers in real life?

I wouldn't bother. I'm sure actual facts about single or teen mums in work or study aren't going to be exactly headline grabbers are they?

 

[MarcSten]

it was a good speech and it is true that the choice at the next election is a stark one. i certainly do not want to live under a conservative government. however, the sad fact is that brown has made too many gaffes (and his cabinet colleagues are so opportunistic, smarmy and disingenous) that i just don't believe he has the ability to take the country with him in the way that blair could.

 

[Giles]

ETA, RIRA, Tamil Tigers and dozens of other armed sepratist groups around the globe all muslims are they?

You will note that I didn't say "all".

Just most.

Giles..

 

[belboid]

but thats still bollocks as well, in all probability.

they're just the popular ones right now.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I thought they kicked 16 year olds in care out on their own anyhow?

I wonder how long it will take for a kid of a 16 year old to receive a permanent home with their mum now, after they have to basically live in one room hostels for at least two years? Is this really good for the child, or does no one care as long as they're getting a good kicking?

it was completely disingenuous anyway, as Gingerbread note:

Just three per cent of all births in 2007 (the latest available data) were to mothers under 18, and teenagers make up just two per cent of single parents. Far from ‘being handed the keys to a council flat’ young people under 18 are in fact not allowed to hold a tenancy.”

“Most teenage parents already live at home and homeless 16 and 17 year olds are already supposed to be offered supported accommodation by their local authority.

 

[_angel_]

it was completely disingenuous anyway, as Gingerbread note:

Just three per cent of all births in 2007 (the latest available data) were to mothers under 18, and teenagers make up just two per cent of single parents. Far from ‘being handed the keys to a council flat’ young people under 18 are in fact not allowed to hold a tenancy.”

“Most teenage parents already live at home and homeless 16 and 17 year olds are already supposed to be offered supported accommodation by their local authority.

I asked how many under 18's get council houses because every single advertised property I've seen on the bidding list has been a minimum over 18's only.


But government must know this also, surely and just want to come out with stuff that sounds hard to appease twats, basically. I suppose it proves that even if something isn't true, people will keep on repeating it as if it is.

But the idea behind it (punish the young girl left doing all the work, completely ignore the boys or men who got them pregnant) is still horrible.

 

[Wolveryeti]

But the idea behind it (punish the young girl left doing all the work, completely ignore the boys or men who got them pregnant) is still horrible.

It's not about 'punishment' though, is it?

My mum (who works in a referral centre) says her referrals in suspected neglect/abuse cases are almost entirely mums under the age of 25 with a history of broken relationships. Clearly there is a problem with just chucking housing and cash at these individuals and leaving them to their own devices.

I don't see the problem with centres which will provide a bit of structure to young parents' lives and make sure that their kids are getting a good start in life.

 

[Fedayn]

Most muslims are not terrorists.

However, most terrorists are muslims. Or claim to be.

Giles..

Fuck me it's Chubby Brown.

 

[trevhagl]

I asked how many under 18's get council houses because every single advertised property I've seen on the bidding list has been a minimum over 18's only.


But government must know this also, surely and just want to come out with stuff that sounds hard to appease twats, basically. I suppose it proves that even if something isn't true, people will keep on repeating it as if it is.

But the idea behind it (punish the young girl left doing all the work, completely ignore the boys or men who got them pregnant) is still horrible.

i think your answer lies on another thread, in the general forum where the poster points out that the election is decided by a few thousand people in marginal constituencies, ie lets appeal to the rabid middle classes

 

[Kaka Tim]

You will note that I didn't say "all".

Just most.

Giles..

Any actual facts to back up your ill informed sweeping statement?

 

[_angel_]

It's not about 'punishment' though, is it?

My mum (who works in a referral centre) says her referrals in suspected neglect/abuse cases are almost entirely mums under the age of 25 with a history of broken relationships. Clearly there is a problem with just chucking housing and cash at these individuals and leaving them to their own devices.

I don't see the problem with centres which will provide a bit of structure to young parents' lives and make sure that their kids are getting a good start in life.

Some mums will need the help and others won't. Plenty of girls/ women have children under the age of twenty five without needing "help" though!

It sounds as if this "idea" already more or less exists for under 18's anyway, so is probably just spinning something that's already there.

And I do think the idea is punishment, especially if you see who it's aimed at trying to appease. Why not supervision and education for the boys that father the children for example?

 

[Kizmet]

But the idea behind it (punish the young girl left doing all the work, completely ignore the boys or men who got them pregnant) is still horrible.

Huh? How did you work that out?

 

[Kizmet]

Why not supervision and education for the boys that father the children for example?

I think that's also meant to be part of the system.