Brockwell Park loses a chunk due to junction alterations at Herne Hill Junction

[OpalFruit]

Whatever happens, something needs to be done to improve pedestrian safety at the various crossings all round this junction.

I have seen near-misses with small children almost being flattened by illegal left turns out of the road from the station, and outside Stardust. there is such a jungle of traffic lights, and such short intervals for pedestrians to make it across - it can take 10 mins to cross the road with a straggling family of toddlers, bike and buggy - half of it on a narrow pedestrian space inbetween two lanes of thundering traffic. it is very very un-user-friendly for pedestrains - espcially those who can't make the mad dash in the 3 seconds the green man is showing for.

 

[Winot]

Whatever happens, something needs to be done to improve pedestrian safety at the various crossings all round this junction.

I have seen near-misses with small children almost being flattened by illegal left turns out of the road from the station, and outside Stardust. there is such a jungle of traffic lights, and such short intervals for pedestrians to make it across - it can take 10 mins to cross the road with a straggling family of toddlers, bike and buggy - half of it on a narrow pedestrian space inbetween two lanes of thundering traffic. it is very very un-user-friendly for pedestrains - espcially those who can't make the mad dash in the 3 seconds the green man is showing for.

+1

Crossing with a pushchair can be all but impossible. The junction *has* to be improved so it is safe to cross. I'd love it if all the fuckers making unnecessary car journeys saw the light of day and cycled/walked everywhere, but it ain't gonna happen. Politics is unfortunately the art of the possible.

 

[gaijingirl]

I think that everyone agrees that the ped crossing situation is dangerous as it is.

 

[Dan U]

so are they still doing this so they can pedestrainise in front of Herne Hill station?

As on the plans that were in the shops a while back that was one of the other benefits for doing this.

 

[gaijingirl]

I'm not sure what you mean tbh. I know that "pedestrianising" the front of HH station is a proposal - I don't think that's necessarily related to taking parkland though? Or at least it shouldn't be - since they are, or should be, two completely separate issues.

The plans are on here: http://www.hernehillsociety.org.uk/

It's worth a close read of John Brunton's statement I think. It's not clear just how "pedestrianised" that section will be, he says closed to all "but large vehicles" - what does this mean exactly? Are we talking the bin lorries in the mornings - or any large vehicles at all times? It might not be the tables out in the road scenario! For cyclists so far it just means the creation of one bike lane, which will mirror the internal road in the park anyway. There will also be ASLs but surely you can make an ASL simply by moving the stop line back a couple of feet for the cars? (not a planner so don't know about this).

It just seems to me (and to be fair, Brunton also says this) that there's a lot of work to be done on this and it's not at all clear how it will help. I'm suspicious really having seen other junctions (notably the Abbeville Road/Clapham Park road) go through repeated changes in short spaces of time but not actually improving much.

It would be very easy to take a bit of park and then discover it hasn't really helped anyone. In fact, badly done it could even make matters worse. IMHO of course.

 

[han]

It would be very easy to take a bit of park and then discover it hasn't really helped anyone.

This is a very good point.

Sadly, what usually happens when we expand roads to make things easier for cars, is that the cars just increase in number to fill them....

Road widening/building is NOT a solution to the fact that there are too many cars - it's the CARS that are the problem!

It really saddens me that cars always have priority over sustainable modes of transport (legs, bicycles)....

And once a bit of green is gone - it's gone forever. We need more space for cars like we need a hole in the head!

 

[Ol Nick]

And once a bit of green is gone - it's gone forever. We need more space for cars like we need a hole in the head!

I do think it's a shame they don't knock down some buildings instead.

They plan to do the same for this ridiculous across-the-river tram scheme too: rip out bits of Millennium Green at Waterloo to help them get round the corner. Knock down a shop or two for fuck's sake. No-one needs all that crap they're selling.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

It would be very easy to take a bit of park and then discover it hasn't really helped anyone. In fact, badly done it could even make matters worse. IMHO of course.

Quite. My big worry is that they'll sort out that bit, traffic-wise and then less people will avoid the hell of those road junctions and it'll all snarl up again.......

 

[Mrs Magpie]

This is a very good point.

Sadly, what usually happens when we expand roads to make things easier for cars, is that the cars just increase in number to fill them....

Road widening/building is NOT a solution to the fact that there are too many cars - it's the CARS that are the problem!

It really saddens me that cars always have priority over sustainable modes of transport (legs, bicycles)....

And once a bit of green is gone - it's gone forever. We need more space for cars like we need a hole in the head!

Word.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

This is a very good point.

Sadly, what usually happens when we expand roads to make things easier for cars, is that the cars just increase in number to fill them....

Road widening/building is NOT a solution to the fact that there are too many cars - it's the CARS that are the problem!

It really saddens me that cars always have priority over sustainable modes of transport (legs, bicycles)....

And once a bit of green is gone - it's gone forever. We need more space for cars like we need a hole in the head!

han, you should stand for mayor of london. I'll vote for you.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

So would I.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I've started campaigning in a small way.....note tagline.....

 

[guinnessdrinker]

so have I, tagline....

 

[Dan U]

I'm not sure what you mean tbh. I know that "pedestrianising" the front of HH station is a proposal - I don't think that's necessarily related to taking parkland though? Or at least it shouldn't be - since they are, or should be, two completely separate issues.

I meant that when I originally read the proposals in a shop many months ago i understood it to mean that the whole area in front of the Station was being pedestrianised. This would then mean all the traffic going towards Dulwich and Tulse Hill would need to be re-routed and turning this corner of the park would facilitate that.

Certainly a lot of the shops in Herne Hill and the houses where the Number 3 bus turns in to the station approach were actively supporting this plan with posters etc.

Reading the rest of your post it seems things may have moved on, as they have a habit of doing.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Viral campaign alert!......I think I may start a thread in the London forum.......

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Viral campaign alert!......I think I may start a thread in the London forum.......

yeah! go for it!

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Done....

 

[DJWrongspeed]

it's still going to be congested whatever they do, don't agree with encroaching on the park to that extent. Maybe redoing the fence to allow a cycle lane. The bottom line, there's a railway bridge and six roads meet, the proposal won't halt the congestion.

 

[sir.clip]

=DJ The bottom line, there's a railway bridge and six roads meet, the proposal won't halt the congestion.

I do not belive it will ease traffic congestion at any other point at the herne hill junction, Other than the traffic flow coming along Norwood road, coming from the direction of tulse hill/west norwood & the traffic that backs up rosendale & croxted road which desire to turn right into norwood road..
This traffic is the cause of many a problem..
And to open up the right hand turn & create a slip road On a filter light from Norwood road into Dulwich road is just such a good idea..

Then Reclaim the lost park by using the Lido's car park for a green space..

It is a simple & sensable solution, maybe a compromise but it will ease a certain amount of congestion & keep the traffic flowing...

cars are crap & annoying & there are far to many of them in London. Untill Ken Or any other polotician pull there fingers out there arse holes and ban the quantity of motorvehicles aloud into a borough then The congestion will just multiply.. And green spaces will be eliminated.. I hate motorvehicles I really do.. But I see no point in allowing them to just sit & polute the streets through ignorance towards sensible road planning..

I like brockwell park I learnt to ride my bicycle there aged 4. I do not wish to see it chopped up into pieces But I know that the corner in question would allow for a smoother flow of traffic along norwood road.. After 33 years of traveling along that streach of road I could see the benifit from a filter light and slip lane..

 

[London_Calling]

Lots of pro's and cons with this one, we all know the more roads = more traffic argument.

This is such a difficult junction that I'd almost swap pedestrianising the area in front of the station for the piece of park. The problem with that is turning right onto Norwood Road coming from Brixton (Dulwich Road?) - need an extra lane to do that, maybe.

Hey, what about takking a piece of . . .


It's a trricky one indeed, I'm sure TfL have a lot to do with this.

 

[aurora green]

...I'm sure TfL have a lot to do with this.

Actually, according to the bods at the demo on Saturday, even TFL are against this scheme. (more about that here)

There's a nice piece in the South London Press on page 3 today.

 

[OpalFruit]

if the problem is 6 roads all converging at the one spot where they can get under the railway line, why can't another railway crossing be negotiated somewhere? A bridge from the bend in railton Rd where there is a break in the housing to Milkwood Rd, perhaps! Or a tunnel under the railway embankment.

£10s of millions I suppose...to ease the traffic.

 

[London_Calling]

Actually, according to the bods at the demo on Saturday, even TFL are against this scheme. (more about that here)

There's a nice piece in the South London Press on page 3 today.

Thanks for your link. It does say "TfL is curently working on a scheme to take much less of the park" - hmmm "much less" = some.

And TfL's "Heritage Advisor" agrees with the general sentiment expressed in this thread - he is, though, an Advisor, it's not TfL official policy.

 

[pinewood]

oasis

Hands off Brockwell park!!!
Was like an oasis in the middle of a desert - when i used to live in good old Brixton in the 80´s

 

[han]

http://www.brockwellpark.com/membership/petition.htm

I don't know if peeps already know about this but I've put a link up to it.

 

[mulldome]

serious? no place is safe still. dey wud bild da car park on top of da hill if dey cud get away wid it.

 

[gaijingirl]

In addition to the petition currently on the FoBP website - some of you may be interested in the following (from a member of FoBP):

"There is a council meeting at the town hall tonight and we are hoping to make our presence and our protest count! Some of us will be outside from about 5.30 and then hopefully in the public gallery from about 7pm.

COME AND JOIN US! Let them see that they can't just take a thousand metres of our park, our green space - so that cars, lorries, buses and coaches can pour through the junction at greater speed - causing us greater pollution!

Place: Lambeth Town Hall steps - from 5.30 tonight Wed. 4th July."

 

[Crispy]

A quick thought: Surely moving traffic is less polluting that waiting/blocked traffic?

 

[gaijingirl]

A quick thought: Surely moving traffic is less polluting that waiting/blocked traffic?

Probably, dunno - but I don't suppose they'll call off the protest over their choice of words......

 

[kyser_soze]

A quick thought: Surely moving traffic is less polluting that waiting/blocked traffic?

Yes it is - you get less localised particluates especially when traffic is kepy moving and in the grand scheme of things it helps use less fuel because they aren't accelerating/decelerating all the time.

Any links to any updated and easily understandable maps?