Brixton news, rumours and general chat: Summer - Autumn 2018

[ricbake]

The narrow busy A23 in Streatham, Norwood & Brixton Town Centres should have warning signs to scare drivers into being more aware of pedestrians

 

[T & P]

Sure. But there should also be signs warning pedestrians against taking their chances against moving traffic when there are not one but two traffic light-regulated pedestrian crossings in that short stretch of road that offer extremely safe crossings to pedestrians if only they can spare 30 seconds until the lights change.

Not speculating what might have happened here of course, but every single time I have been present on that stretch of road I've witnessed dozens of people coming off buses and dodging moving traffic to get to the Tube all those few precious seconds earlier. If the government ever considered introducing a pilot jaywalking scheme, Brixton Road outside the Tube has to be the most obvious choice in the entire country.

 

[Ms T]

Sure. But there should also be signs warning pedestrians against taking their chances against moving traffic when there are not one but two traffic light-regulated pedestrian crossings in that short stretch of road that offer extremely safe crossings to pedestrians if only they can spare 30 seconds until the lights change.

Not speculating what might have happened here of course, but every single time I have been present on that stretch of road I've witnessed dozens of people coming off buses and dodging moving traffic to get to the Tube all those few precious seconds earlier. If the government ever considered introducing a pilot jaywalking scheme, Brixton Road outside the Tube has to be the most obvious choice in the entire country.

There are three!

 

[ricbake]

Sure. But there should also be signs warning pedestrians against taking their chances against moving traffic when there are not one but two traffic light-regulated pedestrian crossings in that short stretch of road that offer extremely safe crossings to pedestrians if only they can spare 30 seconds until the lights change.

Not speculating what might have happened here of course, but every single time I have been present on that stretch of road I've witnessed dozens of people coming off buses and dodging moving traffic to get to the Tube all those few precious seconds earlier. If the government ever considered introducing a pilot jaywalking scheme, Brixton Road outside the Tube has to be the most obvious choice in the entire country.

Why should thousands people on the pavement trying to navigate Brixton' s bus station, rail inter change, main shopping street keep to the demarked area and if they stray out of it expect to be mown down by a motorist not able to give a little?

 

[billythefish]

Part of the problem is stationary traffic (usually buses) on the inside lane lulling would-be jaywalkers into a false sense of security when the outside lane is moving quite briskly. There is no visibility beyond a bus or HGV. I regularly cycle and drive through and always expect someone to pop out from behind a bus, but those less local would not be as aware. I do wonder whether warning signs in areas such as these would make a difference to drivers. It's supposed to be a 20mph zone too. Very sadly, I have read elsewhere that the poor lady has not made it.

 

[teuchter]

Nothing seems to make a difference to drivers, especially when there's zero attempt to enforce speed limits.

 

[teuchter]

And there's no such thing as jaywalking in the UK.

 

[billythefish]

And there's no such thing as jaywalking in the UK.

I was dumbfounded when I realised that during the Charlie Alliston case. It certainly changed how I ride in the UK.

 

[teuchter]

I was dumbfounded when I realised that during the Charlie Alliston case. It certainly changed how I ride in the UK.

That's interesting - what did it change?

 

[billythefish]

That's interesting - what did it change?

That I could be charged with Wanton and Furious driving for hitting a pedestrian, crossing a road without looking, when it was my right of way - caused me to ride much more cautiously.

 

[happyshopper]

Jaywalking is a US construct that does’t have any meaning in the UK. The problem isn’t the pedestrians doing what pedestrians do; it’s the cars and other vehicles.

 

[teuchter]

One of the problems with controlled crossings is that they default to red. So, anyone who only wants to cross the road on green men takes ages to get anywhere. This is just one reason I object to criticism of pedestrians wanting to take short cuts away from crossings or wanting to cross when it's red. For me to walk into central Brixton there are about six controlled crossings to navigate. Waiting for 30 seconds at each of those adds up, potentially adding an extra 30-50% onto the 'walking' time. Compare that to the time added to car journeys by sticking to the 20mph speed limit, which in reality is usually negligible or non existant and has the added bonus that you probably won't kill anyone in the process.
Anyway, this thing about crossings defaulting to red against pedestrians has been discussed for a while, but I was pleased to see this today:

Green man to be left on in busy areas to get Londoners walking

I hope it's a success and gets more widely rolled out.

 

[teuchter]

It didn’t change. Jaywalking is a US contstruct that’s never applied in the UK. The problem isn’t the pedestrians doing what pedestrians do; it’s the cars and other vehicles.

I know, and fully agree. My question was to billythefish about how it changed the way he rides.

 

[billythefish]

One of the problems with controlled crossings is that they default to red. So, anyone who only wants to cross the road on green men takes ages to get anywhere. This is just one reason I object to criticism of pedestrians wanting to take short cuts away from crossings or wanting to cross when it's red. For me to walk into central Brixton there are about six controlled crossings to navigate. Waiting for 30 seconds at each of those adds up, potentially adding an extra 30-50% onto the 'walking' time. Compare that to the time added to car journeys by sticking to the 20mph speed limit, which in reality is usually negligible or non existant and has the added bonus that you probably won't kill anyone in the process.
Anyway, this thing about crossings defaulting to red against pedestrians has been discussed for a while, but I was pleased to see this today:

Green man to be left on in busy areas to get Londoners walking

I hope it's a success and gets more widely rolled out.

I totally agree - and think it should be extended to all traffic controls - they being intelligent so that those routes (whatever the user) with most congestion should be prioritised. I was just under a wrong illusion that we had jaywalking laws here.

 

[MissL]

This is awful. Poor woman. I drive down Brixton Road nearly everyday and I go very very slowly because people leap like lemmings from the pavement down that entire stretch. Head down and hoping for the best. I also see other motorists and motorcyclists charging down there at ridiculous speeds. Regardless of whose right of way it is on the road why can’t people just use their freaking common sense. If there’s crowds of people slow down. That said even being careful there are sometimes just horrible horrible accidents.

 

[editor]

This is awful. Poor woman. I drive down Brixton Road nearly everyday and I go very very slowly because people leap like lemmings from the pavement down that entire stretch. Head down and hoping for the best. I also see other motorists and motorcyclists charging down there at ridiculous speeds. Regardless of whose right of way it is on the road why can’t people just use their freaking common sense. If there’s crowds of people slow down. That said even being careful there are sometimes just horrible horrible accidents.

And there's also no shortage of utter bellends on motorbikes roaring along at ridiculous speeds. And twat cyclists too.

 

[agricola]

And there's also no shortage of utter bellends on motorbikes roaring along at ridiculous speeds. And twat cyclists too.

At least the utter bellends on motorcycles are as dangerous to themselves as everyone else nowadays, given that 99% of the ones I see are wearing shorts and trainers and are without gloves.

 

[T & P]

Why should thousands people on the pavement trying to navigate Brixton' s bus station, rail inter change, main shopping street keep to the demarked area and if they stray out of it expect to mown down by a motorist not able to give a little?

in a nutshell? Physics.

 

[teuchter]

in a nutshell? Physics.

No. Physics does not compel people to drive dangerously. It's not physics that says cars don't drive on pavements. It's not physics that says cars stop at red lights. It's decisions we make about priorities that decide these things.

 

[T & P]

No. Physics does not compel people to drive dangerously. It's not physics that says cars don't drive on pavements. It's not physics that says cars stop at red lights. It's decisions we make about priorities that decide these things.

There are many collisions between pedestrians and vehicles that don’t include any of the scenarios you suggest in your post, so frankly I am not sure how relevant such comment is.

Whereas various studies seem to suggest up to two thirds of collisions between a motor vehicle and a pedestrian are the fault of the former, that would still leave some 33% of them the fault of peds. A rather significant percentage indeed. But invariably we never, ever, ever see calls for pedestrians to actually pay a bit of attention when they cross the road-never mind suggesting that they could have possibly ever have been at fault. For the sake of clarity, I am not commenting on yesterday’s accident, but making a general observation about the widespread reaction here to any report of an accident.

As a local resident you must surely have witnessed incidents of peds crossing Brixton Road recklessly and without making even the most cursory of checks beforehand. Do you agree that it is actually possible for a vehicle driver to behave in the most defensive and cautious manner possibie and still hit a pedestrian without necessarily being the driver’s fault? Because I can assure you it is most definitely possible, and in fact commonplace enough. Yet the very suggestion of something as inoffensive and sensible as that perhaps pedestrians should also be the target of safety awareness campaigns from time to time is usually seen as an affront in this forum, as some of the last few posts have shown.

 

[ricbake]

There are many collisions between pedestrians and vehicles that don’t include any of the scenarios you suggest in your post, so frankly I am not sure how relevant such comment is.

Whereas various studies seem to suggest up to two thirds of collisions between a motor vehicle and a pedestrian are the fault of the former, that would still leave some 33% of them the fault of peds. A rather significant percentage indeed. But invariably we never, ever, ever see calls for pedestrians to actually pay a bit of attention when they cross the road-never mind suggesting that they could have possibly ever have been at fault. For the sake of clarity, I am not commenting on yesterday’s accident, but making a general observation about the widespread reaction here to any report of an accident.

As a local resident you must surely have witnessed incidents of peds crossing Brixton Road recklessly and without making even the most cursory of checks beforehand. Do you agree that it is actually possible for a vehicle driver to behave in the most defensive and cautious manner possibie and still hit a pedestrian without necessarily being the driver’s fault? Because I can assure you it is most definitely possible, and in fact commonplace enough. Yet the very suggestion of something as inoffensive and sensible as that perhaps pedestrians should also be the target of safety awareness campaigns from time to time is usually seen as an affront in this forum, as some of the last few posts have shown.

I've been listening to pedestrian safety campaigns since tuffty the squirrel - What you appear to be saying is 2 out of 3 drivers and 1 out of 3 pedestrians in rtcs need to be more aware - well where might a good place to start be - A particularly pedestrian dense area with a busy through route?
Try some psychology and arrange the physics to stop injuring people.

 

[billythefish]

I've been listening to pedestrian safety campaigns since tuffty the squirrel - What you appear to be saying is 2 out of 3 drivers and 1 out of 3 pedestrians in rtcs need to be more aware - well where might a good place to start be - A particularly pedestrian dense area with a busy through route?
Try some psychology and arrange the physics to stop injuring people.

A brief helmet-cam shot riding through Brixton from a cyclist's point of view... I could post hours more.

 

[billythefish]

Another brief helmet-cam...

 

[T & P]

Another brief helmet-cam...

Exactly. Countless ‘not-a-fuck-given’ peds doing zombie impressions while crossing one of the busiest roads in London.

 

[teuchter]

I don't see any particularly 'reckless' behaviour from pedestrians in either of those videos. I do note a van stopped halfway onto a pedestrian crossing though, not an unusual sight.

 

[teuchter]

There are many collisions between pedestrians and vehicles that don’t include any of the scenarios you suggest in your post, so frankly I am not sure how relevant such comment is.

Whereas various studies seem to suggest up to two thirds of collisions between a motor vehicle and a pedestrian are the fault of the former, that would still leave some 33% of them the fault of peds. A rather significant percentage indeed. But invariably we never, ever, ever see calls for pedestrians to actually pay a bit of attention when they cross the road-never mind suggesting that they could have possibly ever have been at fault. For the sake of clarity, I am not commenting on yesterday’s accident, but making a general observation about the widespread reaction here to any report of an accident.

As a local resident you must surely have witnessed incidents of peds crossing Brixton Road recklessly and without making even the most cursory of checks beforehand. Do you agree that it is actually possible for a vehicle driver to behave in the most defensive and cautious manner possibie and still hit a pedestrian without necessarily being the driver’s fault? Because I can assure you it is most definitely possible, and in fact commonplace enough. Yet the very suggestion of something as inoffensive and sensible as that perhaps pedestrians should also be the target of safety awareness campaigns from time to time is usually seen as an affront in this forum, as some of the last few posts have shown.

We've been through all this before on the dangerous driving thread. I answered all these points quite comprehensively here.

 

[teuchter]

T & P would you support a nationwide 20mph limit in built-up areas, strictly enforced? By strictly enforced I mean that if you're caught going at 25mph you get, say, a 6 month driving ban, next time a permanent ban.

 

[Gramsci]

The thing about Brixton road in central Brixton was that it did have barriers to stop pedestrians from crossing road. These were removed. This has happened in other parts of London. Oxford Circus is example.

Its the Dutch system. Remove barriers. Traffic will learn to accommodate pedestrians. Its about making street space more open for pedestrians. Changing priority in favour of pedestrians. People learn to live with each other in tolerant fashion.

This works in Holland. Here traffic doesn't seem to be able to get the hang of it. Despite it being in place for years now.

The Dutch system isn't about more law enforcement or fines. Its more about encouraging change in perception of street / road users.

Its optimistic about how human nature works.

In a cut throat neo liberal country like this it doesn't work.

Sharing street/ road space should not have to be enforced by the state authorities.

 

[Gramsci]

On motorcycles and mopeds. I have a lot of sympathy for Deliveroo and pizza delivery guys.

The worst I see is on weekends in CHL. Today came out. Saw two motorcycles speed down the road. No need for it. Just they are taking there high performance bikes out for a ride. They clearly weren't delivering anything. It was there weekend fun.

 

[Gramsci]

This article summarise the two opposite views on road priority.

The US one with " jaywalking" as an offence. The Dutch one with pedestrians having legal right of way. Even where is not a pedestrian crossing.

When there is no such concept as ‘jaywalking’

In this country there is no legal law prohibiting "jaywalking" . Its that the " common sense" of traffic assumes there is one.

Crossing the street; there is not much to it in the Netherlands, so it may be perfect to tackle this subject in this short post week. If you want to cross a city street you just wait for a gap in traffic and you cross. So, isn’t there an obligation to use a zebra crossing? No, there no longer is! That article 99 was scrapped from the traffic laws on 1 January 1995. Until then, pedestrians were not allowed to cross within 30 metres of a zebra crossing, effectively making it illegal to cross the street for over 60 metres with just one zebra crossing in the middle of that zone. That restriction was abolished to simplify the traffic rules and to give the pedestrian more freedom. A zebra crossing is now just a service to the pedestrian. You are allowed to judge for yourself if you want to use it, but you are not obliged to. If you do use the zebra crossing, other traffic must yield the moment it becomes clear you are going to cross the street. Just the visible intention to use the zebra crossing already gives the pedestrian priority over motor traffic and people cycling. U

When there is no such concept as ‘jaywalking’