Peter Matisse
Queering the Mail
Editor - I agree with you 100%.
Peter Matisse
Queering the Mail
Pooka - I see your point also, police officers do not always behave well, like everyone else they are human. One of the reasons I think it is important to support Brian is not only does he seem to be willing to talk, but listen and act. More than that though I think it is very important that we show that other officers have nothing to fear from us if they engage in debate. I think this is especially important for people just coming into the police force. If you demonise your 'enemy' it is much easier to treat them with contempt and distain. If officers are able to talk to people who feel passionate enough to demonstrate they will find they are human just like everyone else. The same applies to people who hate the police. It seems to me that there is within the police force a considerable pressure on officers to fall in behind the police 'line', which seems to be that protesters are just out to have a 'ruck' and you have to stamp on them before it kicks off. In dangerous situations police officers rely on each other for support, it must be difficult to stand up and argue against the hardline attitudes of people who you may have to rely on for your own safety. How much easier if they can say 'Well the protesters I have talked to don't fit the image you are trying to get me to subscibe to.' One of the things that I would like to see is for as many protesters, and police that will be on duty, as possible, getting together before the protest and talking to one another in a relaxed and informal situation. I don't think we will get a chance to build bridges if we keep using past incedents as an excuse 'demonise' the police. These things should not happen, but they do. In the present climate the police are not going to admit fault or apologise, I don't think they trust us enough yet. Hard as it is I think we must learn from the past yes, but not make the past the future. It's a new day, if people are brave enough to protest surely they are brave enough to talk to the police about policing issues.
My brother was carrying out a photographic project in Grimethorpe whem the miners' strike started. He said there was an immediately noticeable difference when the Met arrived. Where local police had had a quite good natured relationship with the strikers, the Met force brought a much more violent, confrontational aproach.
It's not difficult to see the reason for that. They were being used as an occupying force. And I imagine that guys who volunteered to go up to Yorkshire and other strike areas weren't a random cross section of the police force. They were young, probably mostly single, and I imagine a lot of them went up there looking for aggro.
I se parallels with this in the behaviour I remember of some of the police brought in to Brixton in the immediate aftermath of the 1981 riots, when police had been brought in from all over the Met. And I also wonder about the effect on our community of people who look for a posting to Brixton because it'll look good on their cv, showing how hard they are.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Right, radical website? where? looks more like tis from the 'Police Review' to me...
Why spend so much time on 'helping to reform the Brixton police'? The mind boggles... how much 'reform' will the police allow us and on what level?
Shall we have a look at politics?
The law is homophobic, racist and anti working class, pro capitalist class (and was made by conservatives - small c) its enforced by people with similar prejudices... the law and the police cannot 'give' us what 'we want'... [this is NOT a claim for priviledged or elitist rule by a minority group of anarchists as some politically clueless would claim unless i disallowed it in the first place]
Why spend so much time on 'helping to reform the Brixton police'? The mind boggles... how much 'reform' will the police allow us and on what level?
Shall we have a look at politics?
The law is homophobic, racist and anti working class, pro capitalist class (and was made by conservatives - small c) its enforced by people with similar prejudices... the law and the police cannot 'give' us what 'we want'... [this is NOT a claim for priviledged or elitist rule by a minority group of anarchists as some politically clueless would claim unless i disallowed it in the first place]
editor
hiraethified
Heeeeey - nice rhetoric (with an impressive dismissal of the site too - Police Review, indeed!), but for all the tub-thumping, have you actually got any real-world, achievable ideas for making things better for the residents of Brixton?
I'm all for hearing about radical ideologies, but right now I'd like to see some *action* towards sorting out the rising violence and social misery caused to the community by the rise of crack and smack.
Any ideas? Or is it just words?
I'm all for hearing about radical ideologies, but right now I'd like to see some *action* towards sorting out the rising violence and social misery caused to the community by the rise of crack and smack.
Any ideas? Or is it just words?
Clear and to the point, The Black Hand, though dismissing anyone who might disagree with you as "politically clueless" before they open their mouths is a familiar tactic - used to be favoured by (whisper it) Trots.
I sought out these boards to find out what a someone in charge of the police in the place I lived had been saying. In the event, I found a useful dialogue going on between other people who live in Brixton, about policing. (The forum is called "Brixton" after all)And I've learned much in the process.
But, if that engagement doesn't score high enough on some radicalometer and disqualifies me, then I'll piss off somewhere else!
I sought out these boards to find out what a someone in charge of the police in the place I lived had been saying. In the event, I found a useful dialogue going on between other people who live in Brixton, about policing. (The forum is called "Brixton" after all)And I've learned much in the process.
But, if that engagement doesn't score high enough on some radicalometer and disqualifies me, then I'll piss off somewhere else!
Editor
Does it take a £93k cop to bring the community together. Is he capable of bringing the whole community together, including those affected by the deaths of 3 people at the hands of his officers? Including those who experienced the MFJ march and are clear that it was an attack and that it was totally out of order?
And when the police harrass people "brought together", will they still be part of it?
You tell me that you have seen people cause problems on demos. I tell you I haven't. I haven't seen you on the demos either though! And I repeat - I WAS NOT AT J18!!!!
I spoke to someone else who was on the MFJ march today - the story is consistent - all those who were there, tell the same tale. Paddicks officers behaved atrociously. And he says otherwise.
He says people are free to protest in Brixton as long as they harm no-one , but no-one was harmed and yet they were still attacked and threatened by his officers.
edited to say:
Pooka - I guess all I can say is that I wouldn't attack people who had broken no laws!
Does it take a £93k cop to bring the community together. Is he capable of bringing the whole community together, including those affected by the deaths of 3 people at the hands of his officers? Including those who experienced the MFJ march and are clear that it was an attack and that it was totally out of order?
And when the police harrass people "brought together", will they still be part of it?
You tell me that you have seen people cause problems on demos. I tell you I haven't. I haven't seen you on the demos either though! And I repeat - I WAS NOT AT J18!!!!
I spoke to someone else who was on the MFJ march today - the story is consistent - all those who were there, tell the same tale. Paddicks officers behaved atrociously. And he says otherwise.
He says people are free to protest in Brixton as long as they harm no-one , but no-one was harmed and yet they were still attacked and threatened by his officers.
edited to say:
Pooka - I guess all I can say is that I wouldn't attack people who had broken no laws!
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
ftp,
in your long reply to the editor you said:
Such protests are very rare in the year of the average policeman on the beat, and even rarer for the one that isnt trained in public order situations (levels I and II); its not therefore part and parcel of the job. The ones that the average PC deals with are the ones that are on Richmond Terrace most weekends, which are of a different nature than mayday / j18. Football is more common.
How, therefore, can you base your opinions of the police on such a narrow frame of reference?
With regard to the second one, do you mean here the Halloween thing?
Going back to the march, my station was the charge centre for the aftermath of the MFJ march, and my relief were kept on from late turn to man it. If memory serves the overwhelming majority of the prisoners were people that had been looting.
in your long reply to the editor you said:
Such protests are very rare in the year of the average policeman on the beat, and even rarer for the one that isnt trained in public order situations (levels I and II); its not therefore part and parcel of the job. The ones that the average PC deals with are the ones that are on Richmond Terrace most weekends, which are of a different nature than mayday / j18. Football is more common.
How, therefore, can you base your opinions of the police on such a narrow frame of reference?
With regard to the second one, do you mean here the Halloween thing?
Going back to the march, my station was the charge centre for the aftermath of the MFJ march, and my relief were kept on from late turn to man it. If memory serves the overwhelming majority of the prisoners were people that had been looting.
It's not just what you see ...
Maybe you didn't notice, or hear about, the ones done well. Exactly the same as you don't notice the quietly effective and efficient football referee (only muppets like Durkin!).
And like police officers may fall in the trap of only noticing the anarchists throwing bottles at them, the black youths they're arresting for robbery ....
Generalisation on either side is not good and leads only into dead ends as far as dialogue is concerned.
As for reactions under stress (I think ats asked a couple of pages ago) - yeah, they're very different. What officers know before the encounter begins (e.g. contents of briefing, short reports made against car numbers, vague descriptions from recent victims, etc.) all play a part (see the enquiry into the fatal shooting in Hastings).
If you think you are / may be dealing with a dangerous situation you make sure you can react quickly enough to protect yourself / others (e.g armed officers having gun in hand - you could run at one from about 10m before they could draw and aim a holstered weapon). You make sure you are able to deal with the worst scenario you can reasonably expect.
... but unfortunately, as we are not blessed with 100% foresight, the people we are dealing with are not always the actual suspects we thought they may be. That is where the care / explantion afterwards / apology comes in. Sadly our lawyers (just like everyone elses - check out your car insurance policy) seem to equate an apology with an acceptance of guilt and thus an open invitation to sue - so they tell police officers not to do so until all the facts are in (i.e a complaint, an investigation and many months later).
This is the point where the supervisor, coming from a removed position, can (and should) make a huge difference (as illustrated by the custody officer story told by ats and Mrs.M). It is very difficult, however, to explain to an officer that you are going to apologise for something they have done without being perceived as failing to support that officer. But just because it's difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
(edited to insert important word omitted due to tiredness!)
Maybe you didn't notice, or hear about, the ones done well. Exactly the same as you don't notice the quietly effective and efficient football referee (only muppets like Durkin!).
And like police officers may fall in the trap of only noticing the anarchists throwing bottles at them, the black youths they're arresting for robbery ....
Generalisation on either side is not good and leads only into dead ends as far as dialogue is concerned.
As for reactions under stress (I think ats asked a couple of pages ago) - yeah, they're very different. What officers know before the encounter begins (e.g. contents of briefing, short reports made against car numbers, vague descriptions from recent victims, etc.) all play a part (see the enquiry into the fatal shooting in Hastings).
If you think you are / may be dealing with a dangerous situation you make sure you can react quickly enough to protect yourself / others (e.g armed officers having gun in hand - you could run at one from about 10m before they could draw and aim a holstered weapon). You make sure you are able to deal with the worst scenario you can reasonably expect.
... but unfortunately, as we are not blessed with 100% foresight, the people we are dealing with are not always the actual suspects we thought they may be. That is where the care / explantion afterwards / apology comes in. Sadly our lawyers (just like everyone elses - check out your car insurance policy) seem to equate an apology with an acceptance of guilt and thus an open invitation to sue - so they tell police officers not to do so until all the facts are in (i.e a complaint, an investigation and many months later).
This is the point where the supervisor, coming from a removed position, can (and should) make a huge difference (as illustrated by the custody officer story told by ats and Mrs.M). It is very difficult, however, to explain to an officer that you are going to apologise for something they have done without being perceived as failing to support that officer. But just because it's difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
(edited to insert important word omitted due to tiredness!)
editor
hiraethified
FTP: you may not "have seen me at demos" but I've sure been on more than a few of them!
But a lot of my experiences of the police - both very good and very, very bad - have come from attending Cardiff City football matches, where the differences between good policing and bad policing are very pronounced - that was one of the reasons I started the Football Fans vs the CJA campaign
At footie games I've seen officers protecting me and my girlfriend from violent nutters and/or being reasonable, friendly and professional and I've seen stroppy, provocative, bullet-head psychos hell bent on creating trouble.
But I've seen both sides, and that's why I won't join in with your blanket condemnation.
Do you go to high profile football matches? Do you think all policing is bad at footie games?
But a lot of my experiences of the police - both very good and very, very bad - have come from attending Cardiff City football matches, where the differences between good policing and bad policing are very pronounced - that was one of the reasons I started the Football Fans vs the CJA campaign
At footie games I've seen officers protecting me and my girlfriend from violent nutters and/or being reasonable, friendly and professional and I've seen stroppy, provocative, bullet-head psychos hell bent on creating trouble.
But I've seen both sides, and that's why I won't join in with your blanket condemnation.
Do you go to high profile football matches? Do you think all policing is bad at footie games?
Editor
Yes, we have been on some of the same demos. However, my comments are based on recent demos, where I see the OTT policing of Mayday 2001 being used even where there is a small group of 6. Demos such as the Italian Demo (post Genoa and Indymedia), Swedish Embassy (post Gothenburg), Argentinian Embassy (Those Pesky Kids), Brixton MFJ March, Sodexho Occupation, Campsfield, DSEi and Benneton.
And, no, I don't go to football matches. Neither do I accept that football matches are the same as protests, if you are saying that people go to football matches intending to be violent, I am saying that all those demos had no indications that protestors intended to be violent, although the police had no compunction about using violence on a number of those actions. They were OTT on all of them.
Agricola
I am referring to the MFJ march in december - Brian denies that even a window was broken! The Halloween thing, that was not a protest.
The other places I frequently see cops are outside advertised public meetings, where they hang around photographing everybody and clearly setting out to harrass and intimidate people!
Detective Boy
If the problem is that PCs are stressed because of the briefings, then surely it is their supervisors who are doing that briefing. It was certainly senior cops who told reporters from the Observer that there was going to be a large group (possibly several hundred) intent on damaging banks, building societies and other symbols of capitalism. No doubt similar briefings, from senior cops will stress the coppers out on the day and they will then overreact. The Evening Standard reported on Friday that the police intend to use Mayday to "crush" the anti-capitalist movement!
Now, that seems to me to be an institutional problem that goes far beyond individual coppers. And if senior officers are behaving in that manner, I am not sure how effective dialogue is going to be!
Again, the stop and searches I see are random and badly handled. If there are "good" stop and searches, that does not make the bad ones ok, does it.
It seems to me that the Met sees anti-capitalist protestors as "bad" and "violent" all the time. That way they can justify their OTT behaviour, no? But you are saying to me:
"Ignore what you have experienced and take my word for it, some coppers are ok!" and I say to you: "I have yet to meet them!"
Yes, we have been on some of the same demos. However, my comments are based on recent demos, where I see the OTT policing of Mayday 2001 being used even where there is a small group of 6. Demos such as the Italian Demo (post Genoa and Indymedia), Swedish Embassy (post Gothenburg), Argentinian Embassy (Those Pesky Kids), Brixton MFJ March, Sodexho Occupation, Campsfield, DSEi and Benneton.
And, no, I don't go to football matches. Neither do I accept that football matches are the same as protests, if you are saying that people go to football matches intending to be violent, I am saying that all those demos had no indications that protestors intended to be violent, although the police had no compunction about using violence on a number of those actions. They were OTT on all of them.
Agricola
I am referring to the MFJ march in december - Brian denies that even a window was broken! The Halloween thing, that was not a protest.
The other places I frequently see cops are outside advertised public meetings, where they hang around photographing everybody and clearly setting out to harrass and intimidate people!
Detective Boy
If the problem is that PCs are stressed because of the briefings, then surely it is their supervisors who are doing that briefing. It was certainly senior cops who told reporters from the Observer that there was going to be a large group (possibly several hundred) intent on damaging banks, building societies and other symbols of capitalism. No doubt similar briefings, from senior cops will stress the coppers out on the day and they will then overreact. The Evening Standard reported on Friday that the police intend to use Mayday to "crush" the anti-capitalist movement!
Now, that seems to me to be an institutional problem that goes far beyond individual coppers. And if senior officers are behaving in that manner, I am not sure how effective dialogue is going to be!
Again, the stop and searches I see are random and badly handled. If there are "good" stop and searches, that does not make the bad ones ok, does it.
It seems to me that the Met sees anti-capitalist protestors as "bad" and "violent" all the time. That way they can justify their OTT behaviour, no? But you are saying to me:
"Ignore what you have experienced and take my word for it, some coppers are ok!" and I say to you: "I have yet to meet them!"
The Black Hand
Unclean
Beware the forces of recouperation....
The title emphasizes that a previous generation of radicals were bought off [if you don't know what happened you should research it], and it looks like its easily happening here on Urban 75 without too much work on the part of the filth...
Pooka said "Clear and to the point, The Black Hand, though dismissing anyone who might disagree
with you as "politically clueless" before they open their mouths is a familiar tactic - used
to be favoured by (whisper it) Trots." poor little pooka, can't see the wood for the trees... actually i was having a go at all the cops on the board who would have said that sort of thing... if you're not radical enough that's your problem and not mine btw...
Editor: there is a school of criminology called left realism (Jock Young, John Lea, Roger matthews et al)"radical in it's analysis and realistic in its policy proposals" and they say we should make the police more accountable (they've existed since the early 1980s) Now, currently what you're saying is Not radical in your analysis (about policing and society in Brixton) and yes you're engaging in debate with the police (the policy proposals part)... Left realism was formed for precisely the same reasons you're going on about, 'now and today' etc and perhaps you should read their stuff?
I think there are far more engaging and progressive things we could be doing rather than wasting our time on trying to reform a conservative institution... Strategically what does it do for us? and i take the points about trying to make Brixton a safer place (with reservations) Also you should consider for reasons the FTP and i have said earlier that THERE are NO policing solutions to the crime generated by capitalism (international and localised drug dealing) The causes of crime DO lie elsewhere, police are rather like teachers scolding us all and trying to keep us in line (while they bend the rules themselves...) Some of us grow up and go onto better things...
BTW i haven't got a radical ideology, just a critical approach to institutions of capitalist domination and ideas for progressive positive action...
The title emphasizes that a previous generation of radicals were bought off [if you don't know what happened you should research it], and it looks like its easily happening here on Urban 75 without too much work on the part of the filth...
Pooka said "Clear and to the point, The Black Hand, though dismissing anyone who might disagree
with you as "politically clueless" before they open their mouths is a familiar tactic - used
to be favoured by (whisper it) Trots." poor little pooka, can't see the wood for the trees... actually i was having a go at all the cops on the board who would have said that sort of thing... if you're not radical enough that's your problem and not mine btw...
Editor: there is a school of criminology called left realism (Jock Young, John Lea, Roger matthews et al)"radical in it's analysis and realistic in its policy proposals" and they say we should make the police more accountable (they've existed since the early 1980s) Now, currently what you're saying is Not radical in your analysis (about policing and society in Brixton) and yes you're engaging in debate with the police (the policy proposals part)... Left realism was formed for precisely the same reasons you're going on about, 'now and today' etc and perhaps you should read their stuff?
I think there are far more engaging and progressive things we could be doing rather than wasting our time on trying to reform a conservative institution... Strategically what does it do for us? and i take the points about trying to make Brixton a safer place (with reservations) Also you should consider for reasons the FTP and i have said earlier that THERE are NO policing solutions to the crime generated by capitalism (international and localised drug dealing) The causes of crime DO lie elsewhere, police are rather like teachers scolding us all and trying to keep us in line (while they bend the rules themselves...) Some of us grow up and go onto better things...
BTW i haven't got a radical ideology, just a critical approach to institutions of capitalist domination and ideas for progressive positive action...
editor
hiraethified
TBH: so you freely admit you have absolutely *no* real-world, achievable solutions to the current problems in Brixton that are likely to win the support of the people who live there?
As a resident of Brixton who has to live with the very real problems caused by crack and smack, are you surprised that I get fed up with hearing the endless, interesting-but-ultimately-useless ideological 'solutions' that won't make a fucking tot of difference on the streets?
Paddick has earned my respect not because I've suddenly gone 'soft' on the police but because here is one *individual* who is managing to make real improvements to this community. The system may well be fucked up etc, but I'm not going to shout down someone who is making a difference just because it doesn't fit in with my political portfolio.
By directly addressing community groups, encouraging police openness and listening to a broad cross section of Lambeth society, he has earned the respect of many and come up with some effective ideas - which is more than I can say for many of his critics.
And please don't ever patronise me - and those who disagree with you - with bullshit about being 'bought off'.
That really is rather insulting,
As a resident of Brixton who has to live with the very real problems caused by crack and smack, are you surprised that I get fed up with hearing the endless, interesting-but-ultimately-useless ideological 'solutions' that won't make a fucking tot of difference on the streets?
Paddick has earned my respect not because I've suddenly gone 'soft' on the police but because here is one *individual* who is managing to make real improvements to this community. The system may well be fucked up etc, but I'm not going to shout down someone who is making a difference just because it doesn't fit in with my political portfolio.
By directly addressing community groups, encouraging police openness and listening to a broad cross section of Lambeth society, he has earned the respect of many and come up with some effective ideas - which is more than I can say for many of his critics.
And please don't ever patronise me - and those who disagree with you - with bullshit about being 'bought off'.
That really is rather insulting,
TinyCrendon
New Member
Police have used terrible `tactics` against football fans and/or gangs since time. No one ever cared becasue they were `ruffians` running about trying to punch each other...
There is only one concrete proposal that will effect crack and heroin consumption and that is to decriminalise it. Without that there seems little point bothering.
If crack and heroin are to carry on being criminlalised it would appear better for the police's point of view to maintain a small number of very powerful criminal groups who control the trade. This would allow them to hit smaller dealers and give the impression or maybe even actually the creation of safer streets. However this tactic hasn't worked so far.
But in the present day the more dealers you sweep up the more there will be to fill the gap, then the others come out of jail and carry on.
Under present conditions I can only see a large upsurge in violence. I think we are at the stage the USA was some fifteen years ago with the availability of cocaine in the UK. And the basic political choice that has already been made by the political class is to use drugs to criminalise large amounts of the population. I can't see that changing. Nor can I see the police withdrawing support from that decision.
There is only one concrete proposal that will effect crack and heroin consumption and that is to decriminalise it. Without that there seems little point bothering.
If crack and heroin are to carry on being criminlalised it would appear better for the police's point of view to maintain a small number of very powerful criminal groups who control the trade. This would allow them to hit smaller dealers and give the impression or maybe even actually the creation of safer streets. However this tactic hasn't worked so far.
But in the present day the more dealers you sweep up the more there will be to fill the gap, then the others come out of jail and carry on.
Under present conditions I can only see a large upsurge in violence. I think we are at the stage the USA was some fifteen years ago with the availability of cocaine in the UK. And the basic political choice that has already been made by the political class is to use drugs to criminalise large amounts of the population. I can't see that changing. Nor can I see the police withdrawing support from that decision.
editor
hiraethified
Adam: I totally agree with you that the decriminalisation of drugs - accompanied with a parallel huge investment in education, support, health care and harm reduction - is the only realistic way forward (although I have reservations about crack).
I would disagree with your claim that no one cared about police/football violence though - there have been a host of football supporter's associations set up to publicise this issue.
I would disagree with your claim that no one cared about police/football violence though - there have been a host of football supporter's associations set up to publicise this issue.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Its the police WHO FAIL and HAVE FAILED...
Editor: "And please don't ever patronise me - and those who disagree with you - with bullshit about being 'bought off'.That really is rather insulting," Diddums... There was a REAl process of de-radicalising of the '68 generation and i called it 'bought off', perhaps there's been no payment this time (with jobs) but the fact remains there's a great deal of [ideological and more] recouperation going on here....
Also Editor said "TBH: so you freely admit you have absolutely *no* real-world, achievable solutions to the current problems in Brixton that are likely to win the support of the people who live there?" See my title to this post - the Police don't know... why is it MY personal responsibility to come up with a solution as well? {its clearly not}
All this 'police' are 'wonderful' if 'flawed' is also deeply patronising to those of us hassled, fitted up and beaten up by the police too... and the previous generations of ordinary people who have suffered similar experiences...
Editor: "And please don't ever patronise me - and those who disagree with you - with bullshit about being 'bought off'.That really is rather insulting," Diddums... There was a REAl process of de-radicalising of the '68 generation and i called it 'bought off', perhaps there's been no payment this time (with jobs) but the fact remains there's a great deal of [ideological and more] recouperation going on here....
Also Editor said "TBH: so you freely admit you have absolutely *no* real-world, achievable solutions to the current problems in Brixton that are likely to win the support of the people who live there?" See my title to this post - the Police don't know... why is it MY personal responsibility to come up with a solution as well? {its clearly not}
All this 'police' are 'wonderful' if 'flawed' is also deeply patronising to those of us hassled, fitted up and beaten up by the police too... and the previous generations of ordinary people who have suffered similar experiences...
TinyCrendon
New Member
Legalisation/decrim - each drug has to be considered separately. We were talking about this on another thread no ? I think crack must be removed from the criminal/illegal market like smack.
Footy- There were the anti-CJA groups like yours for sure but TBH they werent really representitive of the majority of the chaps who were going to footy at the time - ish ish. Not that im decrying the groups of anything. Late eighties no ? Lots of people who were mere hooligans (as opposed to the truly violent thug) got all sorts of treatment from OB, lots of bad sentences.
Its like the two chaps from Donal MacIntyre BBC `investigative`show, Frain and Marriner, they got big prison sentences for fuck all, but no one will support them being as they are the `undeserving poor` with right wing politics, like a fight etc etc. General footy hooligan point...
Footy- There were the anti-CJA groups like yours for sure but TBH they werent really representitive of the majority of the chaps who were going to footy at the time - ish ish. Not that im decrying the groups of anything. Late eighties no ? Lots of people who were mere hooligans (as opposed to the truly violent thug) got all sorts of treatment from OB, lots of bad sentences.
Its like the two chaps from Donal MacIntyre BBC `investigative`show, Frain and Marriner, they got big prison sentences for fuck all, but no one will support them being as they are the `undeserving poor` with right wing politics, like a fight etc etc. General footy hooligan point...
editor
hiraethified
Perhaps you might be so kind as to point me in the direction of a single, solitary post I've ever made that has anything even remotely approaching that opinion?
Throughout this dialogue - on this thread and others - I've gone to some considerable lengths to point out that I have been supporting *one* rather unique officer on *one* set of issues.
If you weren't so interested in point-scoring and dishing out the patronising lectures, you'd have learnt that I've been "hassled and fitted up" by the police on many, many occasions too, both at football matches and protests - and on one occasion, a 'fitting up' led to me enduring an Old Bailey trial.
Trying to suggest that I'm of the opinion that the police are 'wonderful, if flawed' is just about as insulting as suggesting that I'm somehow being 'bought'.
(Edited to add: I see you've now changed your message around, but I can't be arsed to alter my reply to your original comments)
The Black Hand
Unclean
Editor - i wasn't aiming at you....
i saw this before too "If you weren't so interested in point-scoring and dishing out the patronising lectures, you'd have learnt that I've been "hassled and fitted up" by the police on many, many occasions too, both at football matches and protests - and on one occasion, a 'fitting up' led to me enduring an Old Bailey trial."
I was on about the general feeling that comes across from other posters.... i really didn't mean to get into an exchange with you and still don't....
i saw this before too "If you weren't so interested in point-scoring and dishing out the patronising lectures, you'd have learnt that I've been "hassled and fitted up" by the police on many, many occasions too, both at football matches and protests - and on one occasion, a 'fitting up' led to me enduring an Old Bailey trial."
I was on about the general feeling that comes across from other posters.... i really didn't mean to get into an exchange with you and still don't....
Beware the forces of recouperation....
Thanks for your concern The Black Hand, your wood and your trees I suspect. But I don't fret about not being "radical enough",, whatever that means.
But we have yet to hear your ideas for progressive positive action. Some indication of just what fraction of the population you would expect to carry with you would be helpful too
Thanks for your concern The Black Hand, your wood and your trees I suspect. But I don't fret about not being "radical enough",, whatever that means.
But we have yet to hear your ideas for progressive positive action. Some indication of just what fraction of the population you would expect to carry with you would be helpful too
The Black Hand
Unclean
Pooka, i'm not carrying anybody behind me, alongside perhaps... see you on mayday
The point I was trying to make was not that the briefings themselves stressed the officers - just that when operating in a stressed environment and with little time to make a decision, what officers have been told in briefings takes on great importance.
It is not done deliberately by senior officers, and the importance of the content / wording of briefings has been recognised for some years.
As for "bad" stop and searches - no it doesn't make it OK. That's why I have always tried to challenge poor / bad behaviour and why many of my collegaues do so also.
It's just that "you're crap all the time" is not a very helpful way of engaging people in dialogue about most subjects. People tend to turn off ... and police officers are people (a fact that is often forgotten!).
And as for never meeting any OK coppers ... how many have you actually met (out of the 27,000 the Met has) other than in confrontational, on-duty situations? (and I'm not saying this is your problem - how many coppers live and socialise in Central London? (for reasons discussed elsewhere on these boards).
My experience accords with Brians: most officers, most of the time are trying to do a very difficult (and sometimes impossible) job to the best of their (varying) ability. If you don't know any, chances are you'll never believe it from Brian, me or anyone else.
Peter Matisse
Queering the Mail
I'm getting a tad confused. I agree with editor about decriminalisation but I don't think that we are in a position to do that yet. I also don't think that decriminalisation will have much effect on crime rates without addressing poverty and education. I also think that it would also increase the strain on the provision of health care. Smoking, drinking and drug taking all have detrimental effects on health, even if indulged in moderately.
I have read so many negative things about the police here, could someone please tell me what sort of police force they want. Are you really saying that you want the police to allow people to behave exactly as they like, without regard for the rights of people who don't happen to share your views. I sometimes think that to be a radical is a form of cowardice, to propose solutions that are clearly unworkable and unacceptable, just because you fear to get to grips with the reality that has to be dealth with.
I have read so many negative things about the police here, could someone please tell me what sort of police force they want. Are you really saying that you want the police to allow people to behave exactly as they like, without regard for the rights of people who don't happen to share your views. I sometimes think that to be a radical is a form of cowardice, to propose solutions that are clearly unworkable and unacceptable, just because you fear to get to grips with the reality that has to be dealth with.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
I am going to firmly nail my colours to the mast here. I am not working towards a better police service because I am hugely enamoured of our boys in blue. I am however hugely enamoured of those few that are working towards what I want from a police service. I have been arrested for burglary and held illegally for eight hours, without food or water, and threatened with violence by the West Midlands police when I had every right and permission to be in the residential premises they entered illegally. I was in fact a guest of the owner. I have been roughed up by an officer under the command of James Anderton (who was present) and seen a 9 year old child assaulted by the same officer during an illegal eviction. This is all really minor compared to what some have suffered.
I know what can happen with rotten and racist police officers. I am one of the directors of an organisation that was set up by a close friend of mine, Johnny Kamara, who did nearly 20 years for a murder that he didn't commit. Nearly 16 years of that sentence was spent in solitary. We are in negotiation with various agencies, including the Home Office, involved in setting up an after-care service for victims of miscarriages of Justice, the vast majority of whom are suffering from PTSD.
I know other miscarriages of justice too, Raph Rowe and Michael Davis of the M25 Three, Paddy Hill of the Birmingham 6, Mick O'Brien of the Cardiff Three, Peter Fell and many others. Knowing them, and the anguish they all still suffer makes me work all the harder for an accountable and transparent police service. No fringe political movement is going to help me with that, mainly because of their antagonistic attitude and unbendingly blinkered vision and complete lack of ability to negotiate and compromise. They also don't seem to have grasped the fact that there is not going to be a revolution, not even after Closing Time.
Oh, and I stopped going on marches, not because of the police, but because of trouble from within the protesters ranks. I have kids and I am not prepared to have sticks from placards hurled over their heads at the police, as happened on the last march I went on in the 90s, apart from disabilty rights ones. I just thought, "Right, that's it. I am not going to put up with this, and neither are my kids." The vast majority of people that I know that support non-violent protest that have children or are in any way vulnerable themselves just don't do public protest any more because they don't like the violence. Wherever that violence comes from, whichever side starts it, it's always loud mouth blokes that want a ruck.
I know what can happen with rotten and racist police officers. I am one of the directors of an organisation that was set up by a close friend of mine, Johnny Kamara, who did nearly 20 years for a murder that he didn't commit. Nearly 16 years of that sentence was spent in solitary. We are in negotiation with various agencies, including the Home Office, involved in setting up an after-care service for victims of miscarriages of Justice, the vast majority of whom are suffering from PTSD.
I know other miscarriages of justice too, Raph Rowe and Michael Davis of the M25 Three, Paddy Hill of the Birmingham 6, Mick O'Brien of the Cardiff Three, Peter Fell and many others. Knowing them, and the anguish they all still suffer makes me work all the harder for an accountable and transparent police service. No fringe political movement is going to help me with that, mainly because of their antagonistic attitude and unbendingly blinkered vision and complete lack of ability to negotiate and compromise. They also don't seem to have grasped the fact that there is not going to be a revolution, not even after Closing Time.
Oh, and I stopped going on marches, not because of the police, but because of trouble from within the protesters ranks. I have kids and I am not prepared to have sticks from placards hurled over their heads at the police, as happened on the last march I went on in the 90s, apart from disabilty rights ones. I just thought, "Right, that's it. I am not going to put up with this, and neither are my kids." The vast majority of people that I know that support non-violent protest that have children or are in any way vulnerable themselves just don't do public protest any more because they don't like the violence. Wherever that violence comes from, whichever side starts it, it's always loud mouth blokes that want a ruck.
I think quite a lot of people on these boards are arguing for the same thing, Peter. They want a police force that is answerable to the community it polices. Even here, I think the majority of people are willing to admit that, when violent men with guns threaten us, we need to give the police power to deal with them.
But we do not want to live in tyranny. The more powers the police are given, the greater the danger that those powers will be abused, and the greater the need for checks and balances. Lambeth - and Brixton in particular - has been in the forefront of that debate for twenty years. Perhaps that is why Brian Paddick wanted to work here.
It's not about people behaving exactly as they like - there are too many bastards who want to behave in ways that would make life unbearable for the rest of us to have that as a general principle. I'd say it's about having a democratic society that makes laws that we all accept, even if we disagree with them and are fighting to change them, and a police force that implements those laws without behaving brutally to the population.
And we want to see a police force that is free of institutional racism/sexism/homophobia/disablism etc.
The issue being discussed here and now in Brixton is about community and police. If policing is something that is imposed on us by force, it will not be very successful. But if the police are willing, as Paddick has shown himself willing, to listen to us, to explain themselves to us and negotiate with what we want, we may arrive at something that maximises the freedom of the whole community and justifies the powers that the police are given.
Peter Matisse
Queering the Mail
Mrs Magpie; Ats - Thanks for your views. I think very much in the same way as you do. I have not suffered at the hands of the police at all and I have respect and admiration for them. I also think that there are some officers who are either racist, sexist, homophobic or thugs. There are just as many, hopefully more, who are not. Like you I have issues about the transparency of the process that the police adopt when dealing with complaints made against them, and that other police officers conduct the investigations. I also am very uneasy about the militaristic nature of the police force and it's culture. Some of the police statements that I have read regarding the cases of wrongful covictions that you mentioned have also angered me. It seems to me that the police, on some occasions, always see themselves as right even when they are clearly wrong. My reason in asking the question is because I have read a lot on this site about what has happened to people at the hands of the police, but not many suggestions about what should be done in order to prevent such things in the future, and what sort of police force we should have in the 21st Century. I do think that it is easy to sit in the trench of ideology, behind the walls of dogma, lobbing grenades of rhetoric over the top. Sometimes you have to be brave enough to walk out into nomansland with an olive branch to sit down and talk. I joined the debate on this site because I have lived here since the late 70's. I love living here. I hate the fact that people who live in Brixton have to put up with such negativity. Even today all some people seem to know about Brixton are the race riots in the eighties. I came to this site out of my support for Brian Paddick in the hope of linking up with other supporters of his and offering my help. I think that Brian Paddick is not only an extraordinary police officer but an extraordinary human being as well. In some ways he may be the most radical of all, because he has managed to retain his open views through a long career in the police force. I also think that his example will be very important to new recruits in the police force, as it clearly demonstrates what a positive response members of the public have to his inclusive way of thinking. My question was not meant to be interpreted as a slur on anyone on this site, or as any sort of put down. It was just a plain question beacause I do not have the wit to work out which direction some people on this thread want to go in terms of the future of policing in Brixton. You have both answered my question and I hope you will perceive that I am very much in line with your views.
