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*Brixton Movement for Justice March

medicineman - we do try to isolate the trouble-makers but it can be very difficult to do. If we find innocent people trapped in the cordon we make every effort to get them out as quickly as reasonably practicable.

Our new Police Authority, quite rightly, is trying to discipline us into living within our budget. We have to be more realisitic about the numbers of officers required to police demonstrations but that does not mean that we will not put out a large number of officers if we believe that is necessary. On the night in question we did not have many officers.

My understanding is that police officers lined the march (both sides/front/back) in the time honoured fashion. Officers then walk alongside the march wherever it wants to go. This time, when the officer in charge decided the march should not go back to Brixton, the marchers were 'held' to prevent them from going back to the Town Centre.

The law requires demonstrators to give advance notice to the police. We also have the ability to find out about demonstrations where we are not given any notice. We also have the capability to respond to spontaneous demonstrations. The Metropolitan Police is the best in the world at dealing with this type of issue.

It is about perceptions and we do genuinely try to be fair and even handed. We too try to disrupt demonstrators freedoms only temporarily, unless they break the law.
 
Last year at the end of Mayday in the blimmin cordon an SWP woman came down the front and shouted really loudly in my ear with a megaphone. I turned round wearily and said "oh can you fuck off please" with a tired slightly incredulous smile on my face (it was right in my ear). Quite Victor Meldrew really.

at this point one officer grabbed me, hoisetd my jacket up my back (with my right arm) and bent me over whilst another kicked me once in the chest and a third `stabbed` me in the genitals three times with his truncheon. (mind me crown jewels!!) all the time they were shouting "threatening behaviour".

plenty of witnesses including one press photographer.

then they let me go and one of them said "fuck off this is big boys games."

Not nice but not the end of the world.

but i'll be honest, i am too scared of the police to make a complaint.
 
Originally posted by Brian
[we do genuinely try to be fair and even handed. We too try to disrupt demonstrators freedoms only temporarily, unless they break the law. [/B]
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I am posting for the first time, but have been reading the threads for a while. I live in Munich and left the UK partly because I just did not want to live in fear anymore, because of the violence, the homophobic intolerance and prejudice. Sure it exists in Munich but you can walk around and be pretty sure that you are not gonna get your head kicked in by robbers, gay-bashing skins or the police. I nearly fell off my chair when I started reading the posts from Brian. He has single handedly restored my faith in the fact there there is a human face in the police somewhere. Power to you Brian and respect that you are still posting. I guess one of the reasons you get so much stick is because who the hell else from the police can anyone debate these things with? No-one else from the police seems interested in a dialogue like this.

Having said that I understand what Adam means and Brian’s statement that “we do genuinely try to be fair and even handed” does have to be challenged, because even if these are your values it is not fair to say they are the values in all parts of the police force. I respect the fact that you are trying to change it from within…
 
we do try to isolate the trouble-makers but it can be very difficult to do. If we find innocent people trapped in the cordon we make every effort to get them out as quickly as reasonably practicable.
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Bollocks! What about the tourists in the cordon at Oxford Circus who showed the officers their tickets? What about the parents with prams who were not allowed to leave Parliament Square? Brian, it sounds good but I don't even believe that you believe that crap.

And THEY ARE ALL INNOCENT!!!!!!! You would not have grounds for holding them in police cells. That is the point!! Some officer decides that there "might" be a breach of the peace, and then the kettle is formed and people are held, against their will without committing any crime.

And you are happy for it to happen, in fact you say:


The Metropolitan Police is the best in the world at dealing with this type of issue.
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And more bollocks!!! What are you promoting now Brian? The behaviour of the Met at demonstrations is despicable!! The practioce of incarcerating protests is probably in violation of the human Rights Act, and the coppers who come in are rude, aggressive and violent fuckers.

No respect for this kind of indefensible drivel at all!

Bottom line, deep down you know it's out of order and that it is not possible to justify a lot of what goes down.

:p

Edited to add bit about "They are all innocent" and response to Topcats post below!
T/C

I actually think most senior coppers know it's well out of order, but they have instrauctions from their puppet masters to crack down on dissent, and by gum they do!!

Brian is no different.
 
FTP's said:
Bottom line, deep down you know it's out of order and that it is not possible to justify a lot of what goes down.
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I am less sure about this. I think that the police especially the higher ranks are quite isolated from normal people and tend to reinforce each others beliefs however ridiculous these may be. I think this is also human nature to some extent and makes for more "sincere" press statements anyway!

Brian might like to say that he is more in touch than the average commander but he is unlikely to have got to his position without a certain amount of self delusion.
 
freethepeeps: perhaps you should be directing your rightful anger at the appalling, human-rights-bustin' policing of the last two Maydays at those *directly* responsible, not the Commander of a completely different borough?

What action did you take at the time? Did you lodge an official complaint/lobby your MP etc?
 
Well ( embarrassing confession here) I did actually write to Simon Hughes MP about Mayday 2001. I then had to remind him that if he wanted votes he should reply to corresponsdence. He then wrote back and said that he didn't give a damn! Needless to say he never got my vote (wasn't going to anyway mind!!!)

I see no point in asking the police to investigate themselves. Do you?

Brian made a claim that the Met is the best in the world at dealing with protests. I think it was fair enough to raise issues from Maydays which bring his statement into question.

Primarily this is about the MFJ march which did happen in HIS Borough!
 
Mike: It's hardly surprising that this has occoured. If I logged on to Officer.com as "The Anarchist" I would no doubt get blamed for every brick thrown in the last twenty years...
 
Agricola, the most efficient may be the RUC but I doubt very much that they have many fans over the water.
 
agricola

As you are already aware, I have made myself pretty unpopular with lots of posters on these boards because I have made my feelings about the police quite plain.

I don't like policemen or police forces, and am not about to start stating that one is better than another now.

What I do say, is that Brian's statment that the Met is the best in the world at handling demos is laughable.

Yesterday I saw two peaceful protestors arrested outside the gates of Downing Street. A number of members of the public were shocked at the behaviour of the cops. It was certainly nothing for Brian to be proud of.

Then in recent history, there was the demo outside the Italian Embassy, which I wrote about on

this thread.

I can say that I have now seen the police statements from that demo, as well as the video footage taken by the indymedia people there.

The discrepancy between what I saw (and the video reflects), and what the police say was happening is incredible. And my experience is that the police have learnt how to write statements to justify their behaviour. The truth hardly comes into it!!

Do you think the Met are the best in the world at dealing with protests agricola?

:confused:
 
demos v football matches?

Originally posted by medicineman


the people in the middle - those who would cause trouble if wound up but ordinarily are pretty reasonable people

Isn't this quite often a description of what happens to police officers? Caught up in a confused situation, fired up by adrenaline, they go over the top.
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ftp,

you have the useful skill of saying an awful lot without answering a simple question; have you ever thought about a career in politics? ;)

personally when viewed against gothenburg, seattle and genoa the mayday and J18 protests seem to have been calmer affairs? although i guess we will have to wait until London holds a G8 summit before we find the real answer.

At the moment, i think we are.

edited as i forgot ftps name....doh
 
Originally posted by editor
freethepeeps: perhaps you should be directing your rightful anger at the appalling, human-rights-bustin' policing of the last two Maydays at those *directly* responsible, not the Commander of a completely different borough?
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I think there are references to both Mayday and the Brixton demo in this whole conversation. Brian writes as if this is a common thought amongst higher ranking police officers. Therefore, I have to agree with FTPs anger, although there may be better ways to direct it. I am sure FTP is using these as well, though ;)

Originally posted by editor
What action did you take at the time? Did you lodge an official complaint/lobby your MP etc?
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As Adam Porter said, most people are way too scared of further victimisation to make a complaint...I would be too: 'they' could make your life hell if 'they' wanted to....


(edit: i just changed the italics around)
 
I am in touch with what goes on on the streets. I am not saying that police officers have never behaved inappropriately. Some of your anecdotes have a certain ring of truth about them (I winced Adam!) :eek: What I am saying is the overwhelming majority of police officers almost all of the time behave extremely well under the circumstances and I have nothing but admiration for them. There are always the few who spoil it for the majority (as I seem to remember the headmaster saying as we faced another class detention!)

All the senior police officers I have worked with do try to police demonstrations fairly and would be as appalled as I am, but not totally shocked as I am not, by the type of incident you describe. Overall, I stand by what I said, despite the isolated incident, the Met is the best in the world at this game. 'On a scale of what?' you may ask but the best nonetheless. I am not the lone voice in the wilderness that you think I am in the police. Many feel as I do and many of us share your concerns. But Rome wasn't built in a day and I'm laid-off at the moment so it might take a bit longer!:)
 
Originally posted by editor
Isn't there a word for someone with such deep-rooted prejudices?
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Erm, try "Anarchist" !

I'm sure you understand ed, that being beaten up by them and then having my life turned over for the last 6 months was never going to endear them to me.

Being continually followed and harrassed, was never going to endear them to me.

Watching them attack my friends was never going to endear them to me.

Having them follow me home because I had the audacity to watch them doing a stop-and-search was never going to endear them to me.

Having CO906 tell me which toilet I can use is hardly going to endear them to me.

Reading the lies that they tell in their statements was never going to endear them to me.

Having a custody seargeant deny me liberty to "teach me a lesson" was never going to endear them to me.


Having my photograph taken 20 times during the course of a conversation with a friend at the anti-war demo was never going to endear them to me.

etc etc etc etc

We will just have to accept ed, that I have the views I have. They have been formed through bitter experience. Whilst it is possible that some cops (out of uniform) may be reasonable human beings, the uniform and culture make them part of a system that I do not like, and will never like.

Brian sounds like the manager of my Neighbourhood Housing Office when he starts bigging up the Met. Lots of lovely words, concepts and consultation processes mask the fact that at the end of the day people get an abysmal service.

You will note that I have continued the discussion with Brian without resorting to calling him a twat, or a cunt. Even if I describe his claim that "the Met is the best" as bollocks.

I am sorry that you do not like the way I feel about the police. I don't think that it is a case of thoughtless prejudice. It is something that I have thought about a great deal, and something that I have have had to justify on several occassions.

If I said all crack dealers are scum, would you ask the same question?
 
FTP: I've been stitched up and attacked by the police on several occasions. I tried to take a policeman to court when I was 18 after being treated to verbal and physical assault in the street.

I was stitched up by two lying bastard cops 7 years ago and ended up enduring an Old Bailey trial because of their lies - thankfully I was completely acquited and guess what - the cops walked free to stitch some other hapless sod up.

I've been attacked at football matches, attacked at demos, pulled out of the Albert by a rude uniformed twat 4 years ago without good reason (my subsequent complaint was fobbed off with a bullshit 'we have no record of any officers in that area at that time' claim).

I've been needlessly stopped and searched more times than I care mention, and I've seen more than enough people getting 'what for' from our uniformed chums for no good reason.

So, I've got every reason to build up a nice set of easy-to-shout, easy-to-spread, fashionably anti-establishment prejudices, but then wouldn't I'd be as guilty as ill-informed right wing bigots who declare all protesters 'workshy layabouts' and anarchists 'thugs'?

I judge as I find and I've encountered good cops and bad ones, some of whom do a very shitty job in crap circumstances (like stopping me getting my head kicked in by violent footie fans).

I'm no fan of the police by any means (see above), but I find any kind of 'hate them all' mantra deeply worrying - particularly when there seems absolutely no roon for manouevre. Don't you ever wonder that your built-in absolute hatred might be a self fulfilling prophesy?

And where does all that hatred get you?

I've tried to put my experiences to positive effect, doing my best to provide legal info and resources so that people know their rights when police step out of line, and (hopefully coming soon on this site!) offering advice on how to lodge complaints against the police.

I find Paddick's involvement a very positive step for my community and trying to nail him down for every single police misdemenour anywhere, ever, seems a rather pointless exercise. Why not seize the opportunity for this unique dialogue and see where it might lead instead of constantly pouring scorn, contempt and hatred?

But let's get one thing straight: I remain deeply sceptical of the police and believe it to be riddled with racism and a 'closed ranks' mentality that lets them get away with a multitude of sins. But do I believe it can get better with people like Brian trying radical approaches and engaging tightly with the community? Yes.

You clearly disagree, but it seems that your version of anarchism provides you with a handy mechanism to support your negative prejudices without offering any positive solutions. Which isn't a great deal of help for people trying to improve things for the community....
 
It's obvious that where there's power, there's likely to be abuse of power. But the more secretive an institution is, the more easily that abuse takes place. From the Scarman report onwards, Lambeth has been the site of a unique experiment in opening up the police to the outside world, letting the community know what goes on inside the polcie station walls and making the police increasingly answerable to the community they serve. Large numbers of people in this community have worked for that on all sorts of levels.

Senior police in Lambeth have worked with that process, but have on the whole tended to be defensive and mistrustful. What's unusual about Paddick is that he's much more open to this process, much more accepting of the importance of openness and transparency. Which has major imprrtance for what the community has been working at for the last 20 years.

But it's a slow, difficult, tedious process for everyone concerned.

So I'm with editor. It's dead easy to say 'They're all bastards, so it's not worth bothering'. Working to make our community a fit place to live in is harder.
 
I wanted to add to the debate about the police and being stopped. I have only ever been stopped by the police twice in my life, both times were when I was just doing ordinary everyday things, I was not in a crowd, not in a demonstration, not doing anything provocative. The incident that most freaked me out was a few years ago about the time of the bombimgs at the Baltic Exchange in the city. At that time I was working in Holborn and myself and two colleagues left work in my car to go and play in a badminton match. I pulled into the traffic in Holborn and about 50 metres behind me was a police van full of officers. They stayed behind me for about 5 - 8 minutes and followed me into Kingsway where they sped past me, pulled across in front of me forcing me to stop and suddenly I and my colleages were surrounded by 5 armed policemen. We were told to get out of the car, leave the doors open, and made to stand out in the road but kept away from each other whilst we were searched and my car was searched. Whilst this was happening other police had stopped the traffic and cordened off the pavement and were shouting at pedestrians to get away from the area. As this was happening I was aware of a couple of things, firstly that the way in which the police were holding their weapons in was obvious that they were ready to use them if necessary, secondly looking at the officers it was clear how stressed they were. The relief when they realised that we were not armed terrorists to me was very clear. We were allowed to go and the police sergeant who had directed the stop told me where I could complain about what had occured. Imediately afterwards I felt very shocked, scared, embarassed and angry about what had happend. I was polite and not agressive and asked if they would tell me why I had been stopped. They said it was because they had had reports that there were terrorists in the area using a car like mine. But at no time did any of the officers ask me or my colleagues to indentify ourselves, we were not even asked our names. It seemed to me that in the time they had been following us they could have checked the registration number, and at least checked to see if any of our names matched the details. I did not sleep very well that night thinking about what could have happened, but I also began to think, well those officers were probably someones husband, brother, father, lover, whatever, and I remembered the look in the eyes of some of them, they were as sacred as I was. I also came to think that, sacred as they were, the training that they had been given protected us both on this occasion.

I am a supporter of Brian Paddick and what he is trying to acheive and I also have great repect and admiration for police officers. I just do not beleive that any one who wants to become a police officer, and gets through the training, wants to be other than the best police oficer they can be. I think that the realities of what they have to face change the attitudes of some of them as they progress. Never forget the stress that they are under, today there are guns and other weapons being used in much larger numbers than ever before. Every time an officer goes on duty the thought must be somewhere in the back of the mind, am I going to finish this shift traumatised, injured or dead. What ever we think of the police they do this on our behalf. every day, and I think we should never forget that. No matter how good the training people under stress can, and do, sometimes behave badly. When I read of the incident about the officer with the bull horn I wanted to ask why did the guy who wrote it thought it was appropriate to tell the officer to 'fuck off'. I would have been as annoyed as he was, but why could he have not said, just as forcefully, something like 'excuse me, do you have to shout right in my ear'. In my view if you treat people with respect then you generaly get respect back, and his attitude and what he said may just have been the last straw for a very stressed officer.

I do have issues with the police, the main one being the lack of transparency in the way they deal with complaints made aginst them, and the militaristic nature of the police force. It seems to me that if a complaint is made about police behaviour, then the ranks are closed and yes, sometimes the truth is abandoned in order to protect the view that the police are always right, even when they are wrong. If nothing else it makes me feel that the police do not trust us, the general public, to understand why these things happen. They don't trust us not to use the complaints system as a personal vendetta by certain groups against the police. But I also beleive that we, the general public, have to realise that choices have consequences, and that rights carry with them responsibilities. If you choose to indulge in activities that are unlawful, even if the laws are bad, daft, etc. then you you have to be prepared to face the consequences. And if you demand rights then you must accept the responsibilities that go with them. Why should the excercising of your rights infringe or remove the rights of others. Police officers have rights just like any one of us, and they make choices, just like any one of us.

One of the reasons I support Brian Paddick so strongly is that, as had been said, he seems to be prepared to listen and he is the first high ranking police officer that I can remember who has said 'Hey, sometimes we screw up. It shouldn't happen, but it does, we're only human.' That is why I think it is very important that we do not let officers like him be destroyed by some of the very dangerous views held by others in the force. And even more importantly show by our continued and continuing support for him, that other police officers have nothing to fear from being open and communicative.

It is not just the police who need to change, we have to examine our own behaviour as well, and put aside attitudes formed by past experience. however hard that may be.
 
Wait for me!

Bout a week ago, I had an exchange with The Black Hand and Free the Peeps. In the interim, I've taken some time to read back through this and some of the other boards here, and to read coverage of the May Day protest. But it's a bit like stopping on a hike to read the map or guide book - you look up and everyone else is disappearing over the hill.

So for the moment, and somewhat breathless from catching up, just to say: There appear to be three issues getting conflated here (and back and forth across other threads).

1. The policing of Lambeth/Brixton, dealing with street crime, the cannabis trial, police accesibilty.
2. The policing of the march protesting the shooting of Dereck Bennet.
3. The policing of major protest such as May Day.

Some contributors appear to take the view that one can only hold a single view of the police as an homogenous monolith, and unless they can tick every box, they'll tick none. Its an untenable, and faintly theological (and thereby dangerous) position. Does it mean that if you had clocked the registration plate of a hit and run driver you wouldn't report it?

The issues should be uncoupled.
The current canabbis trial is common sense and deserves our support;
the guy responsible for it has shown courage and got crucified by the gutter press and deserves our support,
I wasn't at the Dereck Bennet protest (nor does it seem many here were) and can't make a judgement over the conflicting (and I'm sure genuinely held) accounts;
The policing of major protests is an issue of concern not only because of steady erosion of liberties which is going on, but also the danger that stifling protest only leads to worse - I would cite the RUC/B Specials response to the civil rights marches in the north of Ireland in the late sixties/early seventies.

I would suggest though that more progress might be made by posters setting out how they think such events should be policed rather than going over what has happened in the past.

Now I must re-tie me boot laces and pull me socks up
 
That's such a good analysis of this thread that I'm scared to respond, Pooka. But I want to go back to what Peter Matisse has said.

I'm sure the points about people under stress are good ones. If Brian or Detective Boy are reading this, I'd like to hear their experience of such issues.

I was arrested on a demonstration on Portobello Road many years ago. Because it was a demonstration directly against the local police, who were accused of having arrested and beaten up a clown who was busking there, things were pretty tense. In the van going back to the station I felt that if I said a word out of place, I'd have the shit kicked out of me. When the case came to the magistrates' court , and was remanded again and again and again, we got to know the arresting officer quite well. He was a charming guy - pleasant, friendly, joking with us. Whether that means I was wrong in my first assumption, I don't know. (It probably is relevant that I didn't look as weird at the court cases - because of the reason for the demo, everyone there was dressed in clown gear in solidarity.)

Training is obviously an important issue for determining how jumior officers behave, but I do think that messages passed down from above in other ways are also important. Mrs Magpie and I, in our role as lay visitors, once viewed CCTV tapes at Brixton. We saw an incident where a guy was brought in who had, in the course of I forget what, run out in front of a police van and nearly been knocked down. While he was being held in cuffs, the van driver came in and started shouting at the guy, using very aggressive body language, 'Don't you ever fucking do that to me again etc'.

Our point to the senior officer who was viewing the tapes with us was that we could understand the van driver being worked up- he'd nearly run someone over and was still full of adrenaline as a result - but the custody sergeant needed reprimanding because he should have stopped the incident. The fact that that sergeant - and I'm not suggesting he's at all typical - let the driver behave like that towards a handcuffed detainee gave its own message. This sergeant basically gave the message that behaving in that kind of bullying way was an acceptable thing to do.
 
Pooka - I take your point about focus, it was not my intention to dilute the debate by taking it into other areas seemingly unrelated. I agree with you whole heartedly about the gradual errosion of civil liberties by stealth. It seems that every time a protest march has a troublesome element it is used as an excuse to further chip away at the right to protest, regardless of who sparked the trouble in the first place. I think the police should adopt the view that all protesters are peaceful and law abiding until their actions prove otherwise, and not deliberately goad them into a violent reponse. And I think that protesters should likewise behave in a non provocative way towards the police. Swearing at the police and calling them pigs is not, in my view, acceptable. Mutual respect can work wonders. I also think that once a route is agreed it should be kept to, and if the police have to move people in another direction during the course of the march they should make sure that people understand why, and are not just told you will go into this area and stay there because we say so. There is also the fact that the police have to protect the property, and well being, of people who live and work in the areas that the march passes through. I think the right to peaceful protest is one of the fundamental civil liberties and should be defended at all cost, but for me peaceful is a very important word. I think the police should also take account of what the protest is about and modify their actions accordingly. We are approaching May Day once agin and there will be protests. I very much share the views about globalisation and it's effects on developing countries but I do not beleive that protesters have the right to damage property and create havoc. Having said that I think I understand why some protesters may beleive that that is the only way the message will be listened to. It was not too long ago that the views of environmental activists were scorned and derided, and that organisations like Greenpeace were seen as the refuge of left-wing loonies and the like. The debate has moved on since then, and although much remains to be acheived, at least the issue appears to be treated more seriously now. But some of the early protests were violent and maybe that is what must happen at the start of great social change. Perhaps the best that can be done is that the police and protesters try to make sure that, if it has to violent, then it is not people who are damaged.
 
Originally posted by ats
Mrs Magpie and I, in our role as lay visitors, once viewed CCTV tapes at Brixton. We saw an incident where a guy was brought in who had, in the course of I forget what, run out in front of a police van and been knocked down.
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ats, long time ago, I know, but it wasn't a van, it was a patrol car, the car didn't hit the guy, but it was really close. The driver slammed on the brakes and avoided hitting the guy (who was freely admitting that he had jumped out in front of the car quite deliberately) by only a couple of inches. The incident was something to do with (surprise, surprise) dodgy street deals. I remember that I had a certain sympathy for the patrol car driver, I remember how shaken he was, but the Custody Sgt was responsible for the welfare of the detainee, and failed by not intervening. Also I remember that I was concerned that the detainee had been in quick cuffs the whole time, which probably should have been removed on arrival in the Custody area.
 
Sorry Mrs M, hasty typing, missed out a 'nearly'. I do see that changes the meaning rather drastically... (I've edited it in to save confusion to future readers)
 
We'd stayed watching the tape because we wanted to see how long the cuffs were kept on for. The car driver coming in was completely unexpected. But I think one might well say that the sergeant's willingness to keep the detainee cuffed once he was in the station did indicate a lack of considertion for his welfare that subsequently was displayed in an even more serious form.

An interesting aspect of this incident was that we had looked at a number of tapes (all selected at random) which showed custody suites operating in a way that was entirely proper and uneventful. As soon as the officer who was with us saw who was on duty he said something along the lines of 'This might be more interesting', indicating that he knew the particular sergeant to be less reliable than the others we'd seen.
 
Originally posted by pooka
3. The policing of major protest such as May Day.

Some contributors appear to take the view that one can only hold a single view of the police as an homogenous monolith, and unless they can tick every box, they'll tick none. Its an untenable, and faintly theological (and thereby dangerous) position. Does it mean that if you had clocked the registration plate of a hit and run driver you wouldn't report it?

The issues should be uncoupled.... The policing of major protests is an issue of concern not only because of steady erosion of liberties which is going on, but also the danger that stifling protest only leads to worse - I would cite the RUC/B Specials response to the civil rights marches in the north of Ireland in the late sixties/early seventies.

I would suggest though that more progress might be made by posters setting out how they think such events should be policed rather than going over what has happened in the past.
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This is a great summary by Pooka and, drawing on this last comment, I have started a new thread in the Protest/Politics forum called
How to police Mayday It would be really good to hear all your views

MedicineMan
 
editor

Respect to your post and the time that you took over it.

So, I've got every reason to build up a nice set of easy-to-shout, easy-to-spread, fashionably anti-establishment prejudices, but then wouldn't I'd be as guilty as ill-informed right wing bigots who declare all protesters 'workshy layabouts' and anarchists 'thugs'?
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I don't see that "all" protestors are the same as "all" police. Protestors are members of the public who choose to get involved in protests for different reasons and in different ways, with different groups who operate in different ways. Most protestors never resort to violence in the course of their activities. Most protestors take action because they strongly believe in an issue. Most protestors do so voluntarily, and with no prospect of personal gain.

All cops join one police force which has one culture.That culture does not encourage officers to express their individuality. Many cops resort to violence in the course of their duties, often uneccesary and often unreasonable. Most cops take action because it is the policy, or the norm, or because they feel insulted by an individual. Most cops do what they do for money.

I judge as I find and I've encountered good cops and bad ones, some of whom do a very shitty job in crap circumstances (like stopping me getting my head kicked in by violent footie fans).
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The situations where I come across cops are almost always at protests. The agenda there seems clear to me. However, I have seen a number of stop and searches in my neighbourhood recently, and I have yet to see it done with tact or sensitivity.

I have asked this question before, "How do you know if a copper is good or bad?". The uniforms all look (well) uniform to me!

I too judge as I find however, I do not go looking for trouble with cops - that would be silly no? But when officers start treating demos like civil obedience classes, and expect protestors to jump to patently unreasonable orders (with no legal backing), then I am sorry, but I am not prepared to do that!

I'm no fan of the police by any means (see above), but I find any kind of 'hate them all' mantra deeply worrying - particularly when there seems absolutely no roon for manouevre. Don't you ever wonder that your built-in absolute hatred might be a self fulfilling prophesy?
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Not liking them is not the same as hating them, is it? Having said that, after Halloween, for some months the sight of a copper filled me with fear, anger and loathing! I would say that I suffered some form of post-traumatic stress disorder. When I see them now, I would say that I view them with uneasiness and distrust.

I therefore dispute your claim of "built-in absolute hatred", that is your spin - not mine!

And as for the self-fulfilling prophesy, this is what I prophesy:

Most peaceful protests which become violent, will see that violence perpertrated soley by the cops!! I have yet to witness a physical attack by a protestor on a cop, but I have seen many attacks by cops on protestors.

I find Paddick's involvement a very positive step for my community and trying to nail him down for every single police misdemenour anywhere, ever, seems a rather pointless exercise. Why not seize the opportunity for this unique dialogue and see where it might lead instead of constantly pouring scorn, contempt and hatred?
Click to expand...

It was Brian who came onto this thread and claimed that the MFJ march was not attacked. It was Brian who made the claim that the Met are the best in the world at dealing with protest. Personally I believe that he should be staying off the boards and out of the media if he wants any chance of being re-instated into his post. But, I am not responsible for Brian! I have not held him accountable for every thing that the Met has ever done, but once again, this thread is about the MFJ march that happened in Brixton, in December, when Brian was Commander. He was at the march at the end. It seems entirely reasonable to discuss that march on this thread, no?

I presume that if Brian thinks I am "constantly pouring scorn, contempt and hatred" on him, that he will decide not to answer my posts.

I don't see how, when I have first hand knowledge of the treatment of my friends at the hands of Brian's officers, that you can expect me to sweep that under the carpet and focus on the positives! Policing protests is part an parcel of the job, no?

You clearly disagree, but it seems that your version of anarchism provides you with a handy mechanism to support your negative prejudices without offering any positive solutions. Which isn't a great deal of help for people trying to improve things for the community....
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If the only hope of improving things for the community is a suspended copper on £93k, then I am guilty as charged! If it is about building links with local people and groups, about encouraging the empowerment of individuals, about seeking "bottom up" solutions, then that is what I seek to do.
 
If it is about building links with local people and groups, about encouraging the empowerment of individuals, about seeking "bottom up" solutions, then that is what I seek to do
Click to expand...
Hmmm. Nice words. A slippery politician would be proud of that piece of spin! But what does it actually *mean* in achievable terms?

How would you put this delightful rhetoric into action? (and do you not acknowledge that Paddick has been doing just that? At the meeting there was a host of local groups standing up and praising him for his link-building with local groups and communities. Like this one, uniquely.).

And no matter how many times you say you've never seen it happen, I can categorically tell you I *have* seen some 'protesters' insitigating trouble at protests. Either you've been remarkably fortunate to miss it ever happening, or you're being a little selective with your memory.

Do you really believe that there's never, *ever* been some individuals at protests who are there purely for the ruck?

I know it can happen because I've seen it, first hand.

At J18 I was unfortunate enough to find myself next to some of the cowardly fuckwits, indiscriminately throwing bottles from the safety of the crowd in their little toytown balaclava 'anarchist uniforms'. As the glass bounced back everywhichway, a young Mum next to me burst into tears in fear.

Unprovoked police violence is unforgivable. But so is throwing bottles at the police without provocation, endangering those trying to protest peacefully about issues they feel passionately about.
 
ftp; hello again.

You say you've most cops you've encountered have been at demonstrations. I would say the opposite.

I have seen the Met behave dispicably - I stood with a vicar and a retired miner and watched them run rampage through a mining village in 1984. I also sat and listened to the local community policeman bewail the damage done to local policing as the Met sped back down the motorway at the end of the strike.

But I've also encountered police after having my vehicle nicked and after being mugged. They behaved impeccably. I was followed by an unmarked police vehicle late at night (a banger with only one headlight working!) when I first moved to London and subsequently stopped by that vehicle and a van full of police. They were brusque and pretty intimidating initially (they'd stopped me cos my car was still registered out of London and they were looking for someone) but after I explained who I was and why I was where I was (I was checking out somewhere to live) the behaved impeccably - indeed offered some free advic on local real estate and crime levels. Like you friends of mine have encountered the police, when their kids have gone missing or their house has been burgled. Even where they have had a pretty begrudging attitutude to the police (it has been fashionable since the 60's!), they had nothing but praise.

So on what should I base generalisations? There is clearly a problem with policing major demonstrations. The unease about the creeping erosion of liberty that is happening is not restricted to people who gon on them. I have set out in earlier post the ratchet that is in place to make that happen. But it is an issue in it's own right and should not be allowed to poison community policing.

So, how would you police demonstrations?
 
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