Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[Jeanette Moo]

Back to these nightmare schemes! I remember when they did one near Loughborough Junction a few years go. A DISASTER. The council had to close it due to huge, huge local pressure. Sounded nice, didnt work. The Fire Brigade launched a formal complaint.

It made cycling a nightmare - nothing worse than cycling through idle traffic everywhere. Now i'm seeing the same uptick in traffic and only realised why when a neighbour showed me a letter she got (but I didn't?!). Can't wait for winter traffic!

 

[sleaterkinney]

I love this. It's like watching a goldfish over eat becasue it forgot what happened 30 seconds ago.

The point about Railton area LTN is that other people - outside the Railton area LTN - pay the price of the gain of those inside. The Sharp Elbows suffer less air and noise pollution, those outside more air and noise pollution,. And more potential danger for their children.

It's only the tenth time someone has mentioned this to you. It's almost as if you can't quite grasp the idea that others suffering miserably for your gain is in any way questionable.

Look, it keeps getting pointed out to you that Traffic levels change and that LTNs drive down traffic overall. It’s not the case that the same level traffic simply just goes down another road, that’s nonsense.

 

[sleaterkinney]

If there’s too much traffic, and remember Brixton had bad pollution before the pandemic without the LTNs, what’s your idea for reducing car driving?

 

[Jeanette Moo]

The traffic does just go down other routes. It hit Loughborough for months and guess what - traffic didn't reduce, people didn't change.

Its a hot topic on other forums because we have been here before. This are not new to Lambeth and the one big shot there was utterly, utterly failed.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Evaporating traffic:

Evaporating traffic? Impact of low-traffic neighbourhoods on main roads

By Emma Griffin, vice-chair, London Living Streets Low-traffic neighbourhoods can be life-changing for the residents who live in them. Since the neighbourhood improvements in Walthamstow Village in…

londonlivingstreets.com

 

[sleaterkinney]

The traffic does just go down other routes. It hit Loughborough for months and guess what - traffic didn't reduce, people didn't change.

Its a hot topic on other forums because we have been here before. This are not new to Lambeth and the one big shot there was utterly, utterly failed.

The Loughborough thing lasted months did it?

 

[Jeanette Moo]

About the ambulance times thing - this kept coming up as an objection when the Loughborough Junction scheme was being "trialed". There were lots of claims that travel times were being extended or that ambulances were being obstructed. There was even a paramedic speaking at one of the meetings.

But when (too late) a formal statement from the ambulance service was made available, it was quite clear: they did not have any fundamental objections to the scheme and they had not noted any consequences that gave them significant cause for concern.

So, I'd be very sceptical about anything you hear. I think that what happens is that seculative fears about ambulances being delayed get turned into "actually happened" stories. And I'm sure that transformation doesn't always happen accidentally either.

The Ambulance service did raise concerns directly but did not object because they were asked to pull data in a ridiculously short period of time. The perception form their teams was higher traffic, slower response times, concerns over routes.

The fire brigade, who were annoyed that they were asked to provide the stats in an unreasonable amount of time told the council to screw themselves and formally objected anyway while giving damning feedback.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

The Loughborough thing lasted months did it?

Yes. It was mid 2016 before it was fully rolled back.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

Evaporating traffic:

Evaporating traffic? Impact of low-traffic neighbourhoods on main roads

By Emma Griffin, vice-chair, London Living Streets Low-traffic neighbourhoods can be life-changing for the residents who live in them. Since the neighbourhood improvements in Walthamstow Village in…

londonlivingstreets.com

Reading - doesn't this report just highlight exactly what many people have been saying:

“At the first level, there is the perception that road capacity for general traffic has been reduced. However, any changes are offset, or more than offset, by capacity increases on other routes, or changes in traffic management, or changes in driving style, which pack more vehicles into the same space. In other words, not all examples of roadspace reallocation reduce road capacity.”

"Second, there may be a real reduction in capacity on the treated road or area, but this may be offset by adequate spare capacity on alternative routes or at other times of the day. Consequently, people may change their route or journey time, but the overall number of trips and vehicle mileage is likely to remain relatively unchanged."

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yes. It was mid 2016 before it was fully rolled back.

But the main changes, how long were they in there for?

 

[nagapie]

Actually the measures that are being focused on right now are not really mainly about getting more people onto public transport, but getting as many people as possible walking and cycling, and that's not just about getting people out of cars, but reducing the pressure on public transport as much as possible.

So can blue badge holders drive down the non accessible streets?

 

[Jeanette Moo]

But the main changes, how long were they in there for?

2-3 months fro what I recall - but the impact of having even the partial zones was felt right up until the last day

 

[sparkybird]

2-3 months fro what I recall - but the impact of having even the partial zones was felt right up until the last day

As I understand it the council now realise that 2-3 months is not enough time for people to change behaviours, so with the present LTNs they will monitor over a much longer period of time. Of course there is going to be chaos as people adjust, but that isn't necessarily a reason not to try out changes IMO

 

[Jeanette Moo]

As I understand it the council now realise that 2-3 months is not enough time for people to change behaviours, so with the present LTNs they will monitor over a much longer period of time. Of course there is going to be chaos as people adjust, but that isn't necessarily a reason not to make changes IMO

In the digital age when we can plan a route in 30 seconds on our phone we find out that 2-3 months is not enough time for people to adjust? Even with google maps the traffic was obscene!

 

[teuchter]

So can blue badge holders drive down the non accessible streets?

There are no non accessible streets.

 

[nagapie]

There are no non accessible streets.

Sorry, I meant is there special access to roads for people who cannot walk or cycle because they are disabled? Or do they just have to suffer in traffic because they need to drive?
I don't like how the disabled are always forgotten.

 

[teuchter]

2-3 months fro what I recall - but the impact of having even the partial zones was felt right up until the last day

I live in Loughborough Junction. I saw what happened. Where there was congestion it visibly declined throughout the short period that the scheme was actually running.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

I live in Loughborough Junction. I saw what happened. Where there was congestion it visibly declined throughout the short period that the scheme was actually running.

Visibly declined from it's peak 'awful' but still nowhere near back to normal until the final few roads opened up. Every closure had an impact.

 

[teuchter]

Visibly declined from it's peak 'awful' but still nowhere near back to normal until the final few roads opened up. Every closure had an impact.

Right, so it declined, was continuing to decline, and was not allowed the opportunity to return to "normal" because the scheme was abandoned early, much earlier than experience in hundreds of other cities tells us is needed to see things settle. The LJ scheme had been set up with monitoring points planned at various time intervals, and it had been planned to last for a certain amount of time, because it's well known that this amount of time is needed. But it was abandoned long before that time, and before there was any chance to find out the results.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

Right, so it declined, was continuing to decline, and was not allowed the opportunity to return to "normal" because the scheme was abandoned early, much earlier than experience in hundreds of other cities tells us is needed to see things settle. The LJ scheme had been set up with monitoring points planned at various time intervals, and it had been planned to last for a certain amount of time, because it's well known that this amount of time is needed. But it was abandoned long before that time, and before there was any chance to find out the results.

If by 'abandoned' you mean forcibly closed by the council oversight committee because even with their months of data it failed spectacularly and received harsh criticism from everyone from residents, to hospitals, the emergency services, schools and numerous others. They had months or years to plan it, months to analyse it and it failed. Like hand grenade failed.

Even the MP spoke out saying it was a disaster and they should have just "listened to people in the first place". Well, they're back again. Rushed in under a COVID excuse and the misery is about to begin again!

 

[sleaterkinney]

Reading - doesn't this report just highlight exactly what many people have been saying:

“At the first level, there is the perception that road capacity for general traffic has been reduced. However, any changes are offset, or more than offset, by capacity increases on other routes, or changes in traffic management, or changes in driving style, which pack more vehicles into the same space. In other words, not all examples of roadspace reallocation reduce road capacity.”

"Second, there may be a real reduction in capacity on the treated road or area, but this may be offset by adequate spare capacity on alternative routes or at other times of the day. Consequently, people may change their route or journey time, but the overall number of trips and vehicle mileage is likely to remain relatively unchanged."

I can't see the bit you've quoted in the link?

 

[sleaterkinney]

One big difference that this has from the Loughborough Junction scheme is that this is being done all over London, so it's not just an isolated case, more people will see the benefits.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

I can't see the bit you've quoted in the link?

"The most comprehensive study of the phenomenon of disappearing or “evaporating” traffic was carried out by Sally Cairns, Carmen Hass-Klau, and Phil Goodwin in 1998 and followed up in 2002. See below and here. "

The full study.

 

[Crispy]

I own a car and I cannot wait for this sort of thing to be implemented where i live.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

One big difference that this has from the Loughborough Junction scheme is that this is being done all over London, so it's not just an isolated case, more people will see the benefits.

....because having more of something that has failed makes things better?

 

[sleaterkinney]

....because having more of something that has failed makes things better?

LTNs existed and worked even before covid, they're not a failure they're a common part of urban planning.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

LTNs existed and worked even before covid, they're not a failure they're a common part of urban planning.

Yes, there are a few about.....very few post-implementation write ups and studies. Usually when such things are rolled out, like 20mph limits, they are followed up with detailed analysis. This is rarely the case with LTNs which speaks volumes.

I think the fact that Lambeth had others to work against and still failed sets precedent.

 

[Brassed off]

Reading - doesn't this report just highlight exactly what many people have been saying:

“At the first level, there is the perception that road capacity for general traffic has been reduced. However, any changes are offset, or more than offset, by capacity increases on other routes, or changes in traffic management, or changes in driving style, which pack more vehicles into the same space. In other words, not all examples of roadspace reallocation reduce road capacity.”

"Second, there may be a real reduction in capacity on the treated road or area, but this may be offset by adequate spare capacity on alternative routes or at other times of the day. Consequently, people may change their route or journey time, but the overall number of trips and vehicle mileage is likely to remain relatively unchanged."

I live in Loughborough Junction. I saw what happened. Where there was congestion it visibly declined throughout the short period that the scheme was actually running.

Visibly declined from it's peak 'awful' but still nowhere near back to normal until the final few roads opened up. Every closure had an impact.

Visibly declined from it's peak 'awful' but still nowhere near back to normal until the final few roads opened up. Every closure had an impact.

what I find extraordinary is a scheme that actively pushes pollution on to RMR’s, leaving kids and families there to walk through and live in that ‘toxic soup’ as they wait for unproven’traffic evaporation’ one paper written 18yrs ago appears to be the only driver of this theory. Ppl quote Waltham Forest which gives examples of ppl changing driver behaviour as 2!! not even two % but two ppl!
what’s at stake across Brixton is much more profound! We are about to witness the eradication of small BAME owned run businesses from prime real estate on Dulwich Road & Railton same with south Lambeth road.The historic significance of these communities and the customers they serve and the places they have ‘carved’ for themselves to serve their community will be lost as Lambeth reshapes how this borough looks & who gets to thrive here! I object to South Londoners being called‘rat runners’ as they travel from Camberwell & Loughborough to families & businesses in TulseHill & Norwood. ‘Rats’ Seriously the casual tone of disparagement as we ‘red line’ communities is an ominous one!

 

[Jeanette Moo]

what I find extraordinary is a scheme that actively pushes pollution on to RMR’s, leaving kids and families there to walk through and live in that ‘toxic soup’ as they wait for unproven’traffic evaporation’ one paper written 18yrs ago appears to be the only driver of this theory. Ppl quote Waltham Forest which gives examples of ppl changing driver behaviour as 2!! not even two % but two ppl!
what’s at stake across Brixton is much more profound! We are about to witness the eradication of small BAME owned run businesses from prime real estate on Dulwich Road & Railton same with south Lambeth road.The historic significance of these communities and the customers they serve and the places they have ‘carved’ for themselves to serve their community will be lost as Lambeth reshapes how this borough looks & who gets to thrive here! I object to South Londoners being called‘rat runners’ as they travel from Camberwell & Loughborough to families & businesses in TulseHill & Norwood. ‘Rats’ Seriously the casual tone of disparagement as we ‘red line’ communities is an ominous one!

I didn't even realise the date. In addition it takes info from as far back as the 70's! ...and as far away as Australia.

It's valid research it's just being misquoted to fit a purpose.

Do you have a link to the Waltham Forest data?

 

[sleaterkinney]

what I find extraordinary is a scheme that actively pushes pollution on to RMR’s, leaving kids and families there to walk through and live in that ‘toxic soup’ as they wait for unproven’traffic evaporation’ one paper written 18yrs ago appears to be the only driver of this theory. Ppl quote Waltham Forest which gives examples of ppl changing driver behaviour as 2!! not even two % but two ppl!

If you read it the paper analyses 150 sources of evidence, across different countries adding more in 2002 and
they found 25% of the traffic disappeared.