Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[chowce5382]

Actually, I don’t think I have seen this, do you have a link?

I’ll see if i can find it. It wasn’t in the published judgement as a judge giving appeal against his own decision isn’t contained in the publish judgement. I will need to check whether it’s in the form of a side letter and whether it can be released as there might be an issue of who it is addressed to. I’ll check. In any event, we’ve been given leave to appeal by J Kerr which means that, on the appeal grounds, we’re back to debating the issues in court once again.

 

[edcraw]

I’ll see if i can find it. It wasn’t in the published judgement as a judge giving appeal against his own decision isn’t contained in the publish judgement. I will need to check whether it’s in the form of a side letter and whether it can be released as there might be an issue of who it is addressed to. I’ll check. In any event, we’ve been given leave to appeal by J Kerr which means that, on the appeal grounds, we’re back to debating the issues in court once again.

You asked sleaterkinney if he’d read it? Confused.

 

[chowce5382]

I also read the bit where he said that even if he had found against Lambeth it wouldn't have resulted in the LTNs being ripped out - but you've left that out of your statements.
Without LTNs and other measures, we'll just have congestion and pollution which will affect everyone, are you ok with that?

Again, if a judge says this, they have the state on what grounds they wouldn’t grant the “normal relief” in these situations. There is then a process where they have to go back to the relevant case law and state exactly which exception they rely on as the standard normal position is that “relief will be granted”. To not state these reasons is grounds for appeal in itself. This was a matter of opinion, which is fine, but not law.
As to your last questions, I want a outcome which ensures that vulnerable people are protected. There is a way of achieving both

 

[chowce5382]

You asked sleaterkinney if he’d read it? Confused.

I don't know if it has been leaked. Someone on Twitter said they had seen it and I’m not entirely sure how. In any event, I’m not going to be the person to leak something.

 

[cuppa tee]

I used to think that homosexuality was bad until 1967, and then I thought it was fine.

Apologies for the laughing emoji, but a lot of your posts are quite amusing in a dark way but provocative as well...

 

[edcraw]

I don't know if it has been leaked. Someone on Twitter said they had seen it and I’m not entirely sure how. In any event, I’m not going to be the person to leak something.

So you asked if they’d read it knowing they couldn’t have? And you reference it and we have to take your word about what it said?

 

[chowce5382]

So you asked if they’d read it knowing they couldn’t have? And you reference it and we have to take your word about what it said?

As I said, it was leaked on Twitter, you guys knew about the judgement at exactly the same time I did, that was released on Twitter so I assumed he might have seen it. Not difficult to understand

 

[edcraw]

As I said, it was leaked on Twitter, you guys knew about the judgement at exactly the same time I did, that was released on Twitter so I assumed he might have seen it. Not difficult to understand

It’d be great if you could share.

 

[Winot]

I’ll see if i can find it. It wasn’t in the published judgement as a judge giving appeal against his own decision isn’t contained in the publish judgement. I will need to check whether it’s in the form of a side letter and whether it can be released as there might be an issue of who it is addressed to. I’ll check. In any event, we’ve been given leave to appeal by J Kerr which means that, on the appeal grounds, we’re back to debating the issues in court once again.

So can you confirm that you are definitely filing an appeal?

 

[chowce5382]

It’d be great if you could share.

Yup, of course. I’ll check if it is subject to some form of legal privilege. I’m being cautious as Lambeth didn’t mention the right to appeal in their press release so it just makes me think that there might be a legal reason (I.e. that the judge was addressing the respective legal teams directly and not the general public)

 

[CH1]

A good example from the past is the treatment of homosexual people.

Nowadays, the laws Pritti Patel is bringing in around immigration.

I must comment on this.
In church history buggery was associated with heresy - a capital offence.
So its not quite disabled people on this issue - its people wilfully turning their back on God's teaching etc etc.
There is a notorious case in the Church of Ireland whereby the Bishop of Waterford and his steward were executed for this vice.

John Atherton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

it took fifty years of campaigning to change the law on this. And it was not an easy ride.

Police prosecutrions for gay sex offences INCREASED massively after homosexuality was legalised.
Not only that Mary Whitehouse used the Blasphemy laws to close down the newspaper Gay News.

Sometimes legalising something doesn't;t work when prejudices are deeply ingrained - particularly in the police force.

As regards the LTN measures, for and against - there is surely a case for seeing this issue as and act of faith.
Rather like a religious dogma the pro lobby on here are in for the kill.

Mind you I dislike gratuitous damage to public property.
This anti-authoritarian Brixton businessman from Coldharbour Lane had a better way of getting his point across

 

[cuppa tee]

I must comment on this.
In church history buggery was associated with heresy - a capital offence.
So its not quite disabled people on this issue - its people wilfully turning their back on God's teaching etc etc.
There is a notorious case in the Church of Ireland whereby the Bishop of Waterford and his steward were executed for this vice.

John Atherton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

it took fifty years of campaigning to change the law on this. And it was not an easy ride.

Police prosecutrions for gay sex offences INCREASED massively after homosexuality was legalised.
Not only that Mary Whitehouse used the Blasphemy laws to close down the newspaper Gay News.

Sometimes legalising something doesn't;t work when prejudices are deeply ingrained - particularly in the police force.

As regards the LTN measures, for and against - there is surely a case for seeing this issue as and act of faith.
Rather like a religious dogma the pro lobby on here are in for the kill.

Mind you I dislike gratuitous damage to public property.
This anti-authoritarian Brixton businessman from Coldharbour Lane had a better way of getting his point across
View attachment 279334

thank you for this CH1, a much needed injection of context and humour on this sorry thread.

 

[Winot]

So can you confirm that you are definitely filing an appeal?

This is the second time I have asked the question chowce5382 and you haven’t replied. You are under no obligation to do so of course but I assume from your silence that there is a possibility you will not be filing an appeal. You have already said that you will accept the final decision of the court and so that will be that.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

This is the second time I have asked the question chowce5382 and you haven’t replied. You are under no obligation to do so of course but I assume from your silence that there is a possibility you will not be filing an appeal. You have already said that you will accept the final decision of the court and so that will be that.

I don't think it's his call. Sofia has said she wants to and there is already a gofundme for the appeal on the FB page

 

[Winot]

I don't think it's his call. Sofia has said she wants to and there is already a gofundme for the appeal on the FB page

I see that they are some way off the funding target which may ultimately decide the issue:

Donate to OneLambeth LTN Appeal Challenge, organized by One Lambeth

OneLambeth Anti-LTN Court Appeal Fundraiser On Tuesday 5th April 2022 the Appeal Court ju… One Lambeth needs your support for OneLambeth LTN Appeal Challenge

www.gofundme.com

 

[editor]

Lambeth LTN update Lambeth Council issues statement about ongoing vandalism around Low Traffic Neighbourhood schemes

 

[edcraw]

Lambeth LTN update Lambeth Council issues statement about ongoing vandalism around Low Traffic Neighbourhood schemes

Looking forward to the drug taking and sex at the planters - is David organising?

 

[editor]

Looking forward to the drug taking and sex at the planters - is David organising?

View attachment 279399

I didn't realise that I didn't realise that they were that exciting. Now I know where to go when I get out of self isolation!

 

[thebackrow]

The Police will do noting -

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Looking forward to the drug taking and sex at the planters - is David organising?

View attachment 279399

These idiots are utterly deranged.

 

[teuchter]

There's a comment on that article about a 'mile long' queue on Norwood Rd of 'several dozen buses'. That's obviously a massive exaggeration as that would imply the entire stretch between Herne Hill and Tulse Hill and beyond at a complete standstill. But where are the roads that are currently claimed to be significantly more congested than "before"? And at what times?

When I am walking about I take a look at the various roads that I've seen claimed as experiencing problems. I regularly look at Coldharbour Lane - and haven't seen significant queues there for some time. Haven't seen anything particular on Dulwich Rd. Last week, walked along Croxted Rd and it wasn't busy at all, with a queue of maybe 5-10 cars at the bottom for each red light cycle. Norwood Road was not backed up to the Croxted Rd junction.

If anyone reading this can tell me where the problems are, and at what times, I would likely go along and have a look for myself some time. I'm sure there are a few problem areas but for now I'm mostly assuming that the claims I see are generally very much exaggerated.

 

[edcraw]

There's a comment on that article about a 'mile long' queue on Norwood Rd of 'several dozen buses'. That's obviously a massive exaggeration as that would imply the entire stretch between Herne Hill and Tulse Hill and beyond at a complete standstill. But where are the roads that are currently claimed to be significantly more congested than "before"? And at what times?

When I am walking about I take a look at the various roads that I've seen claimed as experiencing problems. I regularly look at Coldharbour Lane - and haven't seen significant queues there for some time. Haven't seen anything particular on Dulwich Rd. Last week, walked along Croxted Rd and it wasn't busy at all, with a queue of maybe 5-10 cars at the bottom for each red light cycle. Norwood Road was not backed up to the Croxted Rd junction.

If anyone reading this can tell me where the problems are, and at what times, I would likely go along and have a look for myself some time. I'm sure there are a few problem areas but for now I'm mostly assuming that the claims I see are generally very much exaggerated.

Totally this - I really haven't seen this huge congestion increase people claim. OneLambeth keep referencimg SCOOT (?) data to say congestion has increased but that also says traffic volumes has decreased, how are LTNs responsible for that? It's bullshit.

Everyone I know who supports LTNs is extremely concerned about air pollution. If the Onesies really are how about they stop f***ing driving everywhere.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Everyone I know who supports LTNs is extremely concerned about air pollution. If the Onesies really are how about they stop f***ing driving everywhere.

Don’t be silly, it’s other people’s pollution that’s the problem, not theirs.

 

[colacubes]

There's a comment on that article about a 'mile long' queue on Norwood Rd of 'several dozen buses'. That's obviously a massive exaggeration as that would imply the entire stretch between Herne Hill and Tulse Hill and beyond at a complete standstill. But where are the roads that are currently claimed to be significantly more congested than "before"? And at what times?

When I am walking about I take a look at the various roads that I've seen claimed as experiencing problems. I regularly look at Coldharbour Lane - and haven't seen significant queues there for some time. Haven't seen anything particular on Dulwich Rd. Last week, walked along Croxted Rd and it wasn't busy at all, with a queue of maybe 5-10 cars at the bottom for each red light cycle. Norwood Road was not backed up to the Croxted Rd junction.

If anyone reading this can tell me where the problems are, and at what times, I would likely go along and have a look for myself some time. I'm sure there are a few problem areas but for now I'm mostly assuming that the claims I see are generally very much exaggerated.

Norwood Road is sometimes backed up, particularly from Tulse Hill towards West Norwood. But as far as I can tell it's because of the various Thames Water digging on the road and temp traffic lights rather than anything to do with LTNs,

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

London of course being famous for its free flowing traffic before LTN’s arrived

 

[BigTom]

London of course being famous for its free flowing traffic before LTN’s arrived

Just like Kings Heath high street!
(this is an area in Birmingham which has had an LTN put in, the high street has been a traffic jam for as long as I've lived here, 23 years, but nowadays anytime traffic is backed up along the high street it's the LTN that did it).

 

[Jeanette Moo]

Saw this on FB. The same traffic engineers who gave evidence at the Hackney trial have written a report on Lambeth:

 

[teuchter]

Saw this on FB. The same traffic engineers who gave evidence at the Hackney trial have written a report on Lambeth:

Their conclusion is that the Systra report commissioned by Lambeth could be better, and I agree with them. They recommend that Lambeth provide a more detailed report and I too would like to see that.

They also say that their review does not attempt to draw any conclusions on whether or not the LTNs are successful.

 

[edcraw]

Their conclusion is that the Systra report commissioned by Lambeth could be better, and I agree with them. They recommend that Lambeth provide a more detailed report and I too would like to see that.

They also say that their review does not attempt to draw any conclusions on whether or not the LTNs are successful.

and they also say that congestion has risen on some boundary roads despite lower traffic volumes. I can't see how that can be blamed on LTNs and goes against the constant claims of increased traffic volumes.

 

[thebackrow]

Saw this on FB. The same traffic engineers who gave evidence at the Hackney trial have written a report on Lambeth:

I told people pages ago there is no organisation it took me months to work out tht you have a ~admitted~ cesspit facebook group, separate groups for each area (oval, railton, etc), tens of smaller groups which are not even on the radar like my residents group, landor residents, etc, a group taking lambeth to court, a group trying to change the way the council operates, a group sorting out signs and stickers......and god knows what else is going on.

Intriguing to know which 'we' is referred to by that tweet as I'm sure the traffic engineers wouldn't have done this out of charity so who funded it? I can't see that it has any relevance to the legal case, which is what the crowdfunding was meant to be for. Whoever posted it has redacted the name of the commissioning person or group which is odd...

The original 'onelambeth' seem completely focussed on their petition to get a referendum on a shift to a committee system. (which is looking like a lost cause as it's got less than 600 signatures after c3 months, which means they haven't even managed to get everyone who donated to the legal crowdfund to sign yet). And the legal group crowdfunding was meant to be spent on the court case, which obviously wasn't relevant for as it's been delivered afterwards (the appeal will be on the evidence presented at the case, and won't consider new evidence).

Interesting to note some of the statements that they've not chosen to highlight -
- the intention off a ETO is to provide an opportunity for a greater scope of data collection without the need for costly and potentially uncertain model forecasting. (which recognises the big advantage of the ETO and trial scheme over a purely theoretical paper consultation before anything is done)