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Brixton features in 4 page feature in Qantas flight magazine

3Zeros said:
The influx of the "foodie" businesses, the promotion of them on a national and international level, the arrival of the monied middle classes, and the process of gentrification are all inextricably linked. To deny that is wilfully ignorant, or worse: it shows you don't give a fuck.
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Or, worse still, that admitting to yourself that such a chain of links exists causes you enough cognitive dissonance, that you can't give a fuck without causing yourself psychological distress.

Claims that it all benefits the local economy ignore the fact that a "local economy" doesn't exist in any real sense. Most of the revenues are funnelled straight out of the area. Even if every business in the area was owned by a local (which they certainly aren't), it would still only be benefitting a minority, while the negative effects of gentrification would continue to impact those who can least afford it.
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I made the same points earlier in the thread. Some posters just aren't open to such ideas.

And for posters to repeatedly suggest that if you have ever been a "consumer", or have had a drink in one of these bars, or once produced a travel-blog, then your criticisms are null and void is, quite frankly, bollocks. We are all participants in this economy and it is how behave within it, and what we demand of it, that makes the difference.
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Well said.
 
3Zeros said:
Your post suggests that those "at the tail end" are just "passive gentrifiers", which I don't agree with at all. The businesses at what I would call the "front end" are active participants in the process and a large percentage of the customers will be too.
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Indeed. What drives those businesses is an already-established (elsewhere) template that shows that appropriation of elements of local culture, along with an environment that can be presented as having an element of "danger" (the legacy of many since-"gentrified" spaces), is a near-perfect selling-ground for the "drinks and eats" market. Outsider businesses attracting outsiders by selling a blandified version of local culture along with their gourmet trinkets.

You identified in your post to Violent Panda some of the higher level mechanisms at play (national flow of everything towards London, the ridiculous globalisation and commoditisation of property, the private ownership of everything) and we can be, and are, critical of those things. But I don't agree that we shouldn't be criticising the lower level mechanisms too.
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Quite. The approach needs to be holistic - interrogate the whole issue, not just specific symptoms.
 
"There are also, unfortunately, people whose only interest is to sneer and slang. Until such posters resist the urge, and engage in actually debating and rebutting each others' positions, we'll just get more twattery."

You're one of the most thuggish posters on here, "Violentpanda". The only one of your crew who elevates beyond sarcasm and vitriol is Gramsci who actually makes skilful argument.
 
"Claims that it all benefits the local economy ignore the fact that a "local economy" doesn't exist in any real sense. Most of the revenues are funnelled straight out of the area. Even if every business in the area was owned by a local (which they certainly aren't), it would still only be benefitting a minority, while the negative effects of gentrification would continue to impact those who can least afford it."

I can't see how this can easily be proved, since if you're not a chain you have to pay a range of rents and taxes, both local and national.
 
hendo said:
"There are also, unfortunately, people whose only interest is to sneer and slang. Until such posters resist the urge, and engage in actually debating and rebutting each others' positions, we'll just get more twattery."

You're one of the most thuggish posters on here, "Violentpanda". The only one of your crew who elevates beyond sarcasm and vitriol is Gramsci who actually makes skilful argument.
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Your criticism would be valid if you weren't busily attempting to establish an equivalence between me mentioning posters who only sneer, and the fact that you find me a "thuggish poster", "hendo". The equivalence doesn't stand up, on the basis that my interest isn't only to "sneer and slang". I'm interested in making points on social issues too. :)

E2A: I don't have a "crew", and that you seek to roll opinions contradicting your own into that of a crew, indicates childishness at best, and dishonesty at worst.
 
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hendo said:
"Claims that it all benefits the local economy ignore the fact that a "local economy" doesn't exist in any real sense. Most of the revenues are funnelled straight out of the area. Even if every business in the area was owned by a local (which they certainly aren't), it would still only be benefitting a minority, while the negative effects of gentrification would continue to impact those who can least afford it."

I can't see how this can easily be proved, since if you're not a chain you have to pay a range of rents and taxes, both local and national.
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I don't think it needs to be "proved". A basic understanding of how the economy works will demonstrate that it is so.
 
3Zeros said:
Your post suggests that those "at the tail end" are just "passive gentrifiers", which I don't agree with at all. The businesses at what I would call the "front end" are active participants in the process and a large percentage of the customers will be too.
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I realise it's another symbiotic feedback loop, but business is risk averse and doesn't set up entirely predicated in the hope of attracting new people into an area. It might piggyback a trend, or amongst other developments even constitute one, but it's based off there being some existing market.

But you can't do much about that in advance unless you've got some kind of Minority Report-for-hipsters thing going on. And you can't do anything like boycott it after the fact because you're not the target market anyway, too late. So really it comes down to either some metropolitan version of burning down people's holiday homes or more likely chasing shadows and trying to convince random people not to live there - or not to live like *that*, or write about it, or try what some writer suggested - which is somewhere between unreasonable and a good way to get sectioned.

There is an answer, which is systemic protection. Like Berlin's rent controls and banning Airbnb, or more generally, protecting lower income tenants and long running small businesses. Basically maintaining a space in society such that you can't completely transform the makeup of an area from one thing to another by displacing people. Of course those in charge would have to not be in league with the devil in the first place.

But still a better option than going after your own neighbours because you've decided they embody something bigger. And I stick to 'passive'; big difference between an apolitical 'let's move to X as it's up-and-coming' and a strategy of 'let's conspire to radically overhaul the area on our terms'.
 
3Zeros said:
And for posters to repeatedly suggest that if you have ever been a "consumer", or have had a drink in one of these bars, or once produced a travel-blog, then your criticisms are null and void is, quite frankly, bollocks. We are all participants in this economy and it is how behave within it, and what we demand of it, that makes the difference.
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Nail. Meet. Head.

Welcome to urban, 3Zeros! :cool:
 
3Zeros said:
Your post suggests that those "at the tail end" are just "passive gentrifiers", which I don't agree with at all. The businesses at what I would call the "front end" are active participants in the process and a large percentage of the customers will be too.

You identified in your post to Violent Panda some of the higher level mechanisms at play (national flow of everything towards London, the ridiculous globalisation and commoditisation of property, the private ownership of everything) and we can be, and are, critical of those things. But I don't agree that we shouldn't be criticising the lower level mechanisms too.
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So how do you think the criticism of the businesses should be exercised?
 
Two long term posters have effectively been bullied/co-coerced off these boards in the past two days. I'd like to think that those who played a part in it will now take a long hard look at their behaviour and amend it immediately.

I'm getting really, really tired of meeting people in the street/pub/cafe who say they'd love to get involved here and add their own new/opinions/insights, but they're put off by the toxic atmosphere created by a handful of dominant posters (quite often they'll consistently name the same culprits).

If posters actually want a forum that reflects the diversity of opinions heard in Brixton, then I'd suggest they stop all the personal attacks, cheap potshots and sneering and concentrate on the topics under discussion. That way we all end up with a better forum.
 
3Zeros said:
I don't think it needs to be "proved". A basic understanding of how the economy works will demonstrate that it is so.
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I'm going to hazard a guess that people have a few different understandings of how the economy works (or doesn't). Even at the most basic level.
 
editor said:
Two long term posters have effectively been bullied/co-coerced off these boards in the past two days. I'd like to think that those who played a part in it will now take a long hard look at their behaviour and amend it immediately.

I'm getting really, really tired of meeting people in the street/pub/cafe who say they'd love to get involved here and add their own new/opinions/insights, but they're put off by the toxic atmosphere created by a handful of dominant posters (quite often they'll consistently name the same culprits).

If posters actually want a forum that reflects the diversity of opinions heard in Brixton, then I'd suggest they stop all the personal attacks, cheap potshots and sneering and concentrate on the topics under discussion. That way we all end up with a better forum.
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You should name the alleged culprits.
 
editor said:
If posters actually want a forum that reflects the diversity of opinions heard in Brixton, then I'd suggest they stop all the personal attacks, cheap potshots and sneering and concentrate on the topics under discussion. That way we all end up with a better forum.
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Sounds good, editor, but you haven't thought it through. How can the smug, pro-gentry lobby justify their position without impugning you for owning a mobile phone and having visited New York. :thumbs:
 
There is sniping, rude behaviour, personal attacks and general unpleasantness from all sides, not just one 'camp'. And plenty of posters who no longer want to visit/ feel they've been bullied out of this forum by the actions of a completely different set of posters, actually. Let's not pretend it's just one set of people to blame here.

Personally I wish there were no camps at all, just a collection of individuals exhanging their opinions. But unfortunately at present it seems anyone dipping their toes into any of the hot topics regularly debated here will soon be classed as part of one group or another, whether they agree with it or not.
 
To be fair, Truxta has made less than 20 posts in this forum over the past 12 months. And IIRC, last time he popped in out of no where to have an unsolicited and feisty pop at Teuchter. Then back tracked and apologised because, credit due, he accepted that he'd been entirely mistaken.

This time, rather than get involved in the debate, he waded in out of nowhere again accusing everyone of beef. Bullying clearly means different things to different people. But he's a fighty fellow, there's little doubt.
 
Well, if it's potshots and attacks we're interested in, I'm still bemused as to what this is about:
editor said:
It seems this kind of disruptive, personalised sniping is just about all your capable of these days. Sad, really.
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I mean, the first bit appears to be the board argument version of an out-of-office reply, which is fine, you've got to have days off, but the last bit is actually the more confusing, like I had some hotly anticipated second album but then tragically lost my way thanks to heroin/glue/artisan cheese tasting evenings. I don't think I even had a debut single tbh, but perhaps it was all perdu au fromage.

No matter :)
 
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mauvais said:
Well, if it's potshots and attacks we're interested in, I'm still bemused as to what this is about:I mean, the first bit appears to be the board argument version of an out-of-office reply, which is fine, you've got to have days off, but the last bit is actually the more confusing, like I had some hotly anticipated second album but then tragically lost my way thanks to heroin/glue/artisan cheese tasting evenings. I don't think I even had a debut single tbh, but perhaps it was all perdu au fromage.

No matter :)
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Blimey. Wtf are you babbling on about? Ffs...what nonsense!!!
 
T & P said:
There is sniping, rude behaviour, personal attacks and general unpleasantness from all sides, not just one 'camp'. And plenty of posters who no longer want to visit/ feel they've been bullied out of this forum by the actions of a completely different set of posters, actually. Let's not pretend it's just one set of people to blame here..
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This one single thread has seen two long term posters leaving for good, and I fully understand why they've given up. And it's a fucking disgrace.
 
Nanker Phelge said:
Blimey. Wtf are you babbling on about? Ffs...what nonsense!!!
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Comprehension on this thread is strangely proportional to agreement, don't you think? You got a passive/aggressive 'like' out of it though so probably worth your effort.

TL;DR: more babbling, don't you worry about it
 
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