British Left

[Matt S]

Hey all,

First off - apologies to those who don't care about this stuff. However, I am officially confused, and only the leftie trainspotters of U75 (UK P+P section) can help me!

The British Left at the moment - who the hell is who?

We've got RESPECT. Easy. We've got the IWCA and the SP and the CPGB, fair enough.

Now is where I start getting confused. There is a reformed Socialist Alliance, right? That seems to be made up of many of the same forces who also make up the Socialist Green Unity Coalition. What on earth is the difference? Then we've got the Campaign for a New Workers Party - which seems to be trying to do the same thing as the reformed Socialist Alliance, as far as I can tell. Why are there three organisations attended by most of the same groups, doing much the same thing?

Then we've also got the random groups - like the Alliance for Green Socialism...do they even exist anymore? Ditto for the Democratic Socialist Alliance....are they the same as the reformed SA?

I used to consider myself a pretty accomplished lefty sect spotter. I take my eye off of the ball for a few months and I have *no idea* what the hell is going on. How is anyone less sad than me possibly going to know.....?

Any help appreciated...

Matt

P.S. Don't ask why I want to know. That would just plunge you into a world of obsessional lefty-gossip-fascination which is disturbing at best.

 

[big footed fred]

easy to spot them.
All you need do is say that rapists from other countries should not be allowed into the UK and they scream racist.
You can also see who they are in real life by the way their right hands move up and down in short jerky movements.

 

[audiotech]

easy to spot them.
All you need do is say that rapists from other countries should not be allowed into the UK and they scream racist.
You can also see who they are in real life by the way their right hands move up and down in short jerky movements.

Refugee families frequently cite rape or the fear of rape as a key factor in their decisions to seek refuge.

 

[MatthewCuffe]

Green Labour

Labour Green

 

[tollbar]

The thread title is misleading. It should be English left, We dont have this problem in scotland.

One party fits all.

 

[articul8]

We've got RESPECT. Easy. We've got the IWCA and the SP and the CPGB, fair enough.

Now is where I start getting confused. There is a reformed Socialist Alliance, right? That seems to be made up of many of the same forces who also make up the Socialist Green Unity Coalition. What on earth is the difference?

Then we've got the Campaign for a New Workers Party - which seems to be trying to do the same thing as the reformed Socialist Alliance, as far as I can tell. Why are there three organisations attended by most of the same groups, doing much the same thing?

Then we've also got the random groups - like the Alliance for Green Socialism...do they even exist anymore? Ditto for the Democratic Socialist Alliance....are they the same as the reformed SA?

DSA = tiny rump with ambition of reforming SA (I think this is what you mean by "reformed SA")

Socialist Green Unity Coalition = SP + handful of non-respect former SAers
and other tiny indie grouplets

CNWP - SP launched campaign for new workers party. Not concerned with just amalgamating existing left groups (although some indies/sects involved might well see that as a goal). ie. if it did become another SA, the CNWP would have failed.

That's my impression anyway.

 

[Charlie Drake]

The thread title is misleading. It should be English left, We dont have this problem in scotland.

One party fits all.

What about the Communist Party of Scotland?

 

[Soul On Ice]

There's more. What about:

Workers' Liberty
http://www.workersliberty.org/

SWP
http://www.swp.org.uk/

The Christian Socialist Movement
http://www.thecsm.org.uk/

The Socialist Party of Great Britain
http://www.spgb.org.uk/

Movement for a Socialist Future
http://www.socialistfuture.org.uk/

The Scottish Republican Socialist Movement
http://srsm.port5.com/srsm/

I'm sure there's even more. The choice in left wing political parties is bewildering for the leftie consumer somewhat akin to the large choice of washing powders that capitalism gives the domestic consumer.


edited for typos

 

[Charlie Drake]

I thought the srsm were in the SSP these days

*Goes off to get a life*

 

[Soul On Ice]

I thought the srsm were in the SSP these days

*Goes off to get a life*

LOL

My trainspotter tendancies are to do with music, which I think is acceptable but
I never realised that there really were people who were socialist trainspotters.

I reckon there could be good sticky thread that lists all of the UK wide left parties. It would be constantly updated with the regular splits and new parties that form.

 

[JHE]

I'm sure there's even more. The choice in left wing political parties is bewildering for the leftie consumer somewhat akin to the large choice of washing powders that capitalism gives the domestic consumer.

Loads: http://www.broadleft.org/gb.htm

But the one of world-historic importance is: http://www.bolshevik.org/

 

[Soul On Ice]

Loads: http://www.broadleft.org/gb.htm

WOW that is an impressive list. I knew there were a lot of leftist organisations but this is way more than I realised.

A person with little knowledge could be fooled into thinking that there were tens of thousands of lefties out there for so many organisations to be able to exist. But we all know the reality is that there are no more than a couple of thousand people who are members of far left parties.

But the one of world-historic importance is: http://www.bolshevik.org/

I'll have to take your word for that cos I'm just gonna start with the list you've given at the top with that stalwart of the left "The Alliance for Green Socialism"

 

[JHE]

My trainspotter tendancies are to do with music, which I think is acceptable but
I never realised that there really were people who were socialist trainspotters.

The real experts can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/leftist_trainspotters/

 

[Soul On Ice]

The real experts can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/leftist_trainspotters/

Sometimes I think the internet is a really scarey place. You couldn't make it up.

 

[MatthewCuffe]

Fantastico! Who better to run the railways than leftist trainspotters?

Railtrack under Mussolini didn't actually run on time after all. Don't believe the hype.

http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.htm

 

[Fledgling]

It would be good if someone could list all the left parties with some membership (i.e. a resonable number of members) and possibly include thier websites and for bonus trainspotting points a bit about each party's positions. Now I'd be impressed with that and it would allow some of us observers of the politics forums to be more clued into debates even though we're not members of any party.

 

[snadge]

easy to spot them.
All you need do is say that rapists from other countries should not be allowed into the UK and they scream racist.
You can also see who they are in real life by the way their right hands move up and down in short jerky movements.

get fucked.

there is no left in UK, at least nothing tangible, respect is a joke, full of chancing apologists, SWP have nothing to offer anyone apart from a distraction for angst ridden wanna be yuppies.

wannabe politicos forget that there is a huge mass of potential voters out there that actually choose not to vote, a big proportion of these abstainers do want to vote, for something worthwhile.


It's not the people that vote they should be aiming at but the people that abstain through choice.

 

[militant atheist]

We've got RESPECT. Easy. We've got the IWCA and the SP and the CPGB, fair enough.

Not wishing to confuse matters further. but ....... the CPGB you mention are not the official Communist Party but a very small (membership of less than twenty) Trotskyite group who nicked the name when the official CPGB was wound up. The official communists are the CPB (membership around 900) who broke away from the (old) CPGB before it was desolved. To further complicate everything the current CPGB are (very critical) members of RESPECT, while the CPB are not.
Also, if you're really interested there are the New Communist Party(who split from the CPGB in 1977), CPB (M-L), CPGB (M-L), Communist Party of Wales and Communist Party of Scotland.

All of them fighting for unity.

 

[tollbar]

I thought the srsm were in the SSP these days

*Goes off to get a life*

The srsm is a constituted platform within the SSP but has some members outwith the party and still considers itself a cross party movement.
They have just launched a new forum which can be found at:

http://srsm.myfreeforum.org/

Other non SSP groups still operating in Scotland are. The Socialist Labour Party. The spgb. the RCG, supporters of the Grant-Woods group and the supporters of the SWP/USA and I think, one or two WRP/newsline people

And, of course, the Morning Star.

 

[militant atheist]

And, of course, the Morning Star.

Which is based around the CPB and allies. Do you still get the paper a day late up there?

 

[eyes&Ears]

I don't think it matters who you are or what you stand for. Once you step into the world of politics as an employment you turn into an untrustworthy spineless tosser!

 

[tollbar]

Which is based around the CPB and allies. Do you still get the paper a day late up there?

Not read it lately, but I think it gets here on time now.

I think I must be getting old because the Morning Star sellers on demos seem to be getting younger.

 

[big footed fred]

get fucked.

there is no left in UK, at least nothing tangible, respect is a joke, full of chancing apologists, SWP have nothing to offer anyone apart from a distraction for angst ridden wanna be yuppies.

wannabe politicos forget that there is a huge mass of potential voters out there that actually choose not to vote, a big proportion of these abstainers do want to vote, for something worthwhile.


It's not the people that vote they should be aiming at but the people that abstain through choice.

In addition to my first post I should also mention that the lefties don't like to admit there is bugger all support for their shit politics.
They just make up a bunch of excuses why they don't get any support. In this case it seem that all those people who don't vote do so as a direct result of the fact that there is no ultra left marxist party and it has nothing to do with people being pissed off with bent politicians like 'where did that loan come from' Blair.
At least snadge tried to make a point unlike most who just post a silly schoolboy insult or call me a racist.

 

[Soul On Ice]

At least snadge tried to make a point unlike most who just post a silly schoolboy insult or call me a racist.

Personally I don't mind right wing folk posting on these boards as long as they've got something interesting to say and have a modicum of intellect so that they can contribute to the debate after all developing new ways of seeing things is a dialectical process. But you are just a fucking arsehole troll who has little to contribute to these debates other than puerile comments. You have the fucking cheek to talk about "silly schoolboy insults" when your first post on this thread said of lefties:

"You can also see who they are in real life by the way their right hands move up and down in short jerky movements."

Yeah, some of the lefties on this forum may be pious and self congratulatory but at least most of them can argue a consistent position in two consecutive posts in the same thread - unlike you.

 

[nightbreed]

Are there any left groups called three men(or women) and a dog?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It would be good if someone could list all the left parties with some membership (i.e. a resonable number of members) and possibly include thier websites and for bonus trainspotting points a bit about each party's positions. Now I'd be impressed with that and it would allow some of us observers of the politics forums to be more clued into debates even though we're not members of any party.

That would be easy enough to do, but you'd have to start by defining what you mean as "a reasonable number of members". If you take say 500 as a base line, you rapidly find yourself reduced to three or four parties. Those would be the Scottish Socialist Party, the Socialist Party, the Socialist Workers Party and (depending on how generous you want to be) maybe the Communist Party of Britain.

In fact if you took 300 as your minimum membership figure you'd end up with exactly the same list. None of the anarchist groups get much over 50, the second tier of Trotskyist groups range from 50 to 150.

 

[levien]

That would be easy enough to do, but you'd have to start by defining what you mean as "a reasonable number of members". If you take say 500 as a base line, you rapidly find yourself reduced to three or four parties. Those would be the Scottish Socialist Party, the Socialist Party, the Socialist Workers Party and (depending on how generous you want to be) maybe the Communist Party of Britain.

In fact if you took 300 as your minimum membership figure you'd end up with exactly the same list. None of the anarchist groups get much over 50, the second tier of Trotskyist groups range from 50 to 150.

I think your being overly generous with the second teir maybe 120 for the AWL and 70 for WP. The third tier probably come in at around 30 with the sparts & CPGB heading the pack. Division 3 is bellow 10 members. We have a communist League member in Manc - they've got some odd politics.

You also missed the SLP who surely top 300 members?

If I'm right on the subject of the thread though the democratic SA is a platform in the reformed SA which is part of the SGUC. The CNWP is SP and WP.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

My personal anecdote about the Peoples Front of Judea relates to a time I was asked to speak to a group calling itself (I think) The Socialist Party. But then I got an e-mail saying it wasnt the real Socialist Party at all, but a SPLITTER

I dont think the meeting went ahead in the end...

To be honest, I think The Greens should start to court the unions better. There are going to be some conflicts on issues surrounding industry, but Greens are the most effective force around at UK level to start tackling issues of concern to working class people. The Greens have many times more elected representitives than all the left put together. We oppose PFI, stock transfer and contemporary capitalism generally.

I know a lot of non SWP people from The Socialist Alliance who could be temptable. That's not to mention issues and groups und and like CND, FriendsOfTheEarth, nimal rights etc. which are all natural green territory.

On balance, the relative demise of SA is regretable. But you can tell which party I am with

 

[neprimerimye]

My personal anecdote about the Peoples Front of Judea relates to a time I was asked to speak to a group calling itself (I think) The Socialist Party. But then I got an e-mail saying it wasnt the real Socialist Party at all, but a SPLITTER

I dont think the meeting went ahead in the end...

To be honest, I think The Greens should start to court the unions better. There are going to be some conflicts on issues surrounding industry, but Greens are the most effective force around at UK level to start tackling issues of concern to working class people. The Greens have many times more elected representitives than all the left put together. We oppose PFI, stock transfer and contemporary capitalism generally.

I know a lot of non SWP people from The Socialist Alliance who could be temptable. That's not to mention issues and groups und and like CND, FriendsOfTheEarth, nimal rights etc. which are all natural green territory.

On balance, the relative demise of SA is regretable. But you can tell which party I am with

I take it you are making reference to the Socialist Party of Great Britain (Socialist Studies) and the Socialist Party of Great Britain (Socialist Standard)? Technically the former is a split from the latter although they claim that as the latter has betrayed the clause in their party constitution which pledges them to be hiostile to all other parties that they (Socialist Studies) have reconstituted the SPGB.

Or maybe you were refering to the Socialist Party afiliated to the Committee for a Workers International which is oft refered to as the SPEW or Socialist Party England and Wales.

The Greens, which I take it is your party, are left liberals and demented at that with your belief in such bizarre and outlandish ideas such as animal rights and capitalism.

 

[neprimerimye]

If I'm right on the subject of the thread though the democratic SA is a platform in the reformed SA which is part of the SGUC. The CNWP is SP and WP.

No your wrong.