Bloody Sunday 40th Anniversary..........
- Thread starter Fedayn
- Start date
Deareg
Well-Known Member
This true, but it is the British state that has the most to hide, probably followed by the Provisionals.No chance of a truth commission any time soon all sides have not only blood on their hands but some very dirty secrets.
Including the Irish state.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
even in the first war and prior to the IRAs emergence as a guerrilla force Britian was unable to introduce conscription to Ireland. They didnt even dare introduce it themselves post 39 in the north . The free state stayed neutral because Develera would have been most likely put up against a wall by his own had he joined the empires cause, and because out of sensible realpolitik Britian didnt force the issue.
Theyre pretty much apologising for their neutrality today though .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
If they put a lie detector on Gerry Adams it would explode into flames in about 4 seconds.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
No chance of a truth commission any time soon all sides have not only blood on their hands but some very dirty secrets.
Including the Irish state.
What chance of a truth commission when even the Hume Adams agreement remains a secret ?
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wobbly
when you look at how far he did go and under what circumstances, i don't think there's much to apologise for.
but i think the commiserations on hitler's death tend to piss people off even if they can sort of understand the neutrality.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
it was only diplomatic protocol with germany , and most likely to camouflage from his own support base the active assistance he'd provided to Britian in secret . Which would have caused uproar had it been widely known . The British were much chummier with hitler when he was alive . Joining the allies at any stage would have signed devs death warrant most likely . The firm policy -outwardly at least - was neutrality . The people had had enough of cannon fodder for other peoples wars .
Like it or not Fianna Fail as a party , particularly at that time, were pretty much organised around and dependent upon the demobilised "Old IRA" structures . Which werent that long demobilised. The political situation was so volatile he found it difficult to trust his own army and even police whod been vicious adversaries in a civil war only a few years earlier . Turmoil at the top could have preceded another , and possibly invasion .
He had to create a part time reserve army and fill it with his own largely ex IRA people just to keep the Eire regulars and police from having any funny ideas about regime change .The vast majority of those people , despite their distaste for nazism and fascism , were quite happy to see Britian get a bloody nose or a comeuppance at the hands of whoever . And most certainly viewed the occupation of the north as unfinished business.
There was no way they could or would have joined the British war effort without massive internal upheavals and most likely another civil war.
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wobbly
oh yes, i know it was the protocol, but my feelings are that there are fewer people in britain that understand that than understand why ireland remained neutral.
i'm also aware of how much support dev did give the british, more than a lot of british feel comfortable giving him credit for. and how he turned down churchill's offer of the north, iirc partially on the grounds he always said the north would have to want to join before he took them. the man was walking a bloody tightrope, but he always was quite good at that.
i'm also aware of how much support dev did give the british, more than a lot of british feel comfortable giving him credit for. and how he turned down churchill's offer of the north, iirc partially on the grounds he always said the north would have to want to join before he took them. the man was walking a bloody tightrope, but he always was quite good at that.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
what're your feelings on the 40,000 or so irishmen who joined the british forces in the second world war?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
i think neither he nor the irish people would have trusted churchills offer for a second . Theyd been down the road of promises after wars before . Even the labour government that came after him, as we can see from their cabinet papers , viewed the north as strategically vital to british interests .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
no real feelings about them at all really . Except that if Britian had invaded the rest of the country theyd have been massacring their own people for resisting.
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wobbly
my view:
i think churchill would have offered anything to get what he wanted out of dev, he might even have intended to deliver some of it. but I don't think he could have delivered the north to dublin's control even if he had tried. and dev wasn't an idiot. he knew that.
but nothing will really make much difference to those in britain that are utterly convinced that the irish were all supporting the germans during both wars.
as for the irish fascists, didn't the blueshirts manage to shoot each other in spain?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
they didnt even manage that . They opened fire on a patrol of black faced moors on the assumption that if they were blacks they must be communists, killing a few of them . Got sent to the rear in disgrace . Spent their time in the rear drinking and brawling with anyone who came near them and then got sent home.
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wobbly
impressive.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
in fairness though very few of them were actual fascists . Most i suspect were simply bored out of their minds, adventurous , pious and easily led . And horny. Farmhands in the main tired of a dreary life . And directly encouraged to go by the same middle class and bourgouis political forces that encouraged thousands of others to join the British army in its big escapade .
Their chaplain was a rabid nazi , who died in Germany in the 40s while working for the nazis. He used to scream at them about not only their drunkenness but their fondness for the brothels . Noting that during the first weeks only 5 of them were seen entering brothels ,but later it was 40 a week at least . Subsequently some of them had enough of his berating and open fire on him.
ODuffy himself was rarely seen without a bottle of whiskey at close hand , and his aide de camp later wrote his memoirs should be entitled "drunk in Iberia"
ODuffys people were in totalal disarray with zero discipline . 3 of them were killed in an action at the front and they simply refused to go on another assault ,viewing it as suicidal . Many of them were also genuinely disgusted with the fascist atrocities theyd witnessed . And at one stage one of their officers informed a fascist general he was going to take the brigade home and re-enlist on the socialist side . Almost getting them all shot and himself imprisoned .
Franco couldnt wait to see the back of them.
Their chaplain was a rabid nazi , who died in Germany in the 40s while working for the nazis. He used to scream at them about not only their drunkenness but their fondness for the brothels . Noting that during the first weeks only 5 of them were seen entering brothels ,but later it was 40 a week at least . Subsequently some of them had enough of his berating and open fire on him.
ODuffy himself was rarely seen without a bottle of whiskey at close hand , and his aide de camp later wrote his memoirs should be entitled "drunk in Iberia"
ODuffys people were in totalal disarray with zero discipline . 3 of them were killed in an action at the front and they simply refused to go on another assault ,viewing it as suicidal . Many of them were also genuinely disgusted with the fascist atrocities theyd witnessed . And at one stage one of their officers informed a fascist general he was going to take the brigade home and re-enlist on the socialist side . Almost getting them all shot and himself imprisoned .
Franco couldnt wait to see the back of them.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes because there's no tradition of mutiny among irish regiments in the british army over events in ireland; the mutiny in the connaught rangers had nothing to do with the black and tans i suppose
do you have anything to suggest that at any point in the war an invasion of the 26 cos was seriously on the cards?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
[quote="Pickman's model, post: 10908654, member:
many of the black and tans were Irish . And the croke park massacre wasnt carried out by British soldiers like it showed in the film but by the regular Royal Irish Constabulary . Virtually 100% Irish .
even prior to the war Churchill had made it clear his firm intent would be to retake the treaty ports in the event of war breaking out in europe . That of course would have necessitated occupying , subduing and dominating the territory around them . Which of course would have meant all out escalation and a major guerilla war that would have entailed war time massacres .
On VE day itself , churchills broadcast was particularly scathing of Irish neutrality , accusing the Irish of "frolicking with the germans" He made clear that it had been Britians instinct to invade all along but that theyd shown remarkable "restraint" in not doing so . So he made the point had they invaded, which they considered, it would have been fully justified in his view .
Its quite likely this "restraint" had a lot to do with 500,000 Irishmen enlisting to defend neutrality and the protracted guerilla war , probably german assisted ,that would surely have followed. Its thought that the Russian objection to Ireland joining the UN was part of a vengeful deal arrived at between Britian and Russia at Yalta . And that its refusalof admission to the UN left it still open to invasion at a period in which an imminent third war seemed quite possible .
Devs very restrained rebuttal of Churchills threats in a radio broadcast shortly afterwards earned him a lot of praise.
The Stormont prime minister was also pushing hard at the British cabinet for an all out invasion , urging the use of scottish troops .
Montgomery revealed in his memoirs “I was told to prepare plans for the seizure of Cork and Queenstown in southern Ireland so the harbours could be used as naval bases.”
So it seems to have been highly likely as a possibility .
yes because there's no tradition of mutiny among irish regiments in the british army over events in ireland; the mutiny in the connaught rangers had nothing to do with the black and tans i suppose
many of the black and tans were Irish . And the croke park massacre wasnt carried out by British soldiers like it showed in the film but by the regular Royal Irish Constabulary . Virtually 100% Irish .
even prior to the war Churchill had made it clear his firm intent would be to retake the treaty ports in the event of war breaking out in europe . That of course would have necessitated occupying , subduing and dominating the territory around them . Which of course would have meant all out escalation and a major guerilla war that would have entailed war time massacres .
On VE day itself , churchills broadcast was particularly scathing of Irish neutrality , accusing the Irish of "frolicking with the germans" He made clear that it had been Britians instinct to invade all along but that theyd shown remarkable "restraint" in not doing so . So he made the point had they invaded, which they considered, it would have been fully justified in his view .
Its quite likely this "restraint" had a lot to do with 500,000 Irishmen enlisting to defend neutrality and the protracted guerilla war , probably german assisted ,that would surely have followed. Its thought that the Russian objection to Ireland joining the UN was part of a vengeful deal arrived at between Britian and Russia at Yalta . And that its refusalof admission to the UN left it still open to invasion at a period in which an imminent third war seemed quite possible .
Devs very restrained rebuttal of Churchills threats in a radio broadcast shortly afterwards earned him a lot of praise.
The Stormont prime minister was also pushing hard at the British cabinet for an all out invasion , urging the use of scottish troops .
Montgomery revealed in his memoirs “I was told to prepare plans for the seizure of Cork and Queenstown in southern Ireland so the harbours could be used as naval bases.”
So it seems to have been highly likely as a possibility .
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Cheers Cas Red - very interesting stuff that I didn't know very much about.
With regards to the Irish fighting in the world war - my grandad was a staunch republican who enlisted in the american army as a motorcycle dispatch rider in the 1st World War rather then fight for the British.
With regards to the Irish fighting in the world war - my grandad was a staunch republican who enlisted in the american army as a motorcycle dispatch rider in the 1st World War rather then fight for the British.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
there's some confusion on this point. according to anne dolan's article 'killing and bloody sunday, november 1920' from the historical journal 49.3 (2006), p. 791 http://webir.tcd.ie/bitstream/2262/57090/1/Killing and Bloody Sunday, November 1920.pdf it was the auxies what done it.
but according to 'dublin's fighting story' (cork: mercier, 2009), pp. 292-3, the ric, auxiliaries and british regulars all joined in.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Id seriously question the authenticity of that article, blaming auxies and black and tans is a common misconception and perhaps an understandable desire to blame englishmen and scotsmen for a massacre carried out by Irishmen . From a force of which many of whom were later co-opted into the gardai .
On the day the auxiliaries certainly surrounded croke park - which was their job, to militarily back up the cops - and sealed off the exits but it was the regular RIC who went into it and opened fire . All eyewitness accounts of what happened make clear that although a mixed force of RIC and auxiliaries went to the park under the command of an auxiliary Major it was most certainly uniformed RIC and not auxiliaries or black and tans who did the vast bulk of the shooting inside . And that was just one atrocity they were directly responsible for . There were numerous other smaller ones .
The RIC , like the RUC, were never normal cops but organised from their inception along highly militarised lines . They were always a well armed paramilitary force from day one , never bobbies on a beat. Their reputation was so disgusting thats precisely why they were readily hunted down like dogs and shot , although there were certainly exceptions among them .
Remember it was the RIC , mostly catholic and often gaelic speakers , who evicted tens of thousands of their own people during the starvation of the 1840s . Not redcoats or hussars , good pious catholic gaelic speaking Irishmen often born and bred in the west and the gaeltacht .
While theres always an exception to the rule, the man who pays your wages is more often than not your boss . And while there would certainly have been many Irishmen in the British army whod have been deeply uncomfortable firing on their own people , and some whod have refused, there would have been plenty who would have done it if ordered to do so . There were literally thousands of Irishmen ,often nationalist , stationed in British army barracks in Ireland in 1916 but as far as i can ascertain only one joined the uprising while the rest had no problem putting it down .
Same in 1798 , 1803, Young Ireland rebellion , fenian rebellion .
sadly we can be quite a treacherous race .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
No . The DMP were mostly employed as a regular civil force , like London bobbies . They were a seperate force from the paramiltary RIC . They had access to arms but rarely ever carried them as they tended not to be used for anti insurgency duties unless in a dire emergency such as 1916 . They just werent structured for those type of operations. Their unarmed status meant they werent generally targetted by the IRA in that period unless one of them made a particular nuisance of himself.
The G Men however , the special intelligence detective branch in Dublin were part of the DMP though . And were routinely armed but plain clothed . They had the shit blown out of them regularly.
The G Men however , the special intelligence detective branch in Dublin were part of the DMP though . And were routinely armed but plain clothed . They had the shit blown out of them regularly.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and 'dublin's fighting story'?
from 'with the ira in the fight for freedom':
(p. 222)
from 'the black and tans' (richard bennett):
(p. 127)
from 'the irish revolution and its aftermath' (francis costello):
(p. 95)
from 'the troubles' (ulick o'connor)
(pp. 186-7)
from 'sean treacy and the tan war' (joe ambrose):
(p. 170)
from 'bloody sunday' (james gleeson):
(pp. 145, 146) although gleeson refers now to the black and tans and occasionally to the police, the chapter's called 'massacre by the black and tans', who were of course members of the ric.
from 'red sunday in dublin', the times, 22 november 1920:
(p. 12)
from 'croke park panic - eyewitnesses' stories of the shooting - an official explanation', the times, 23 november 1920:
(p. 12)
it seems that not all eyewitness accounts support your version of events, and, as i said above, there does seem to be some confusion about what happened.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
basically most of them were quite naive catholics outraged at the stories of clerical persecution in spain, and whod been wound up by the preists , the bishops and the bourgouisie . Their footsoldiers lack of any fascist ideology was evident when one of them , from Lurgan , bumped into a group of Irish republican volunteers as both were travelling through france to join their respective sides and decided he liked their company so much he switched sides before he got there .
In my opinion they were seriously out of their depth and woefully naieve. Very few of them had ever fired a shot in anger , they had often minimal training but yet found themselves thrust into the hairiest parts of the front line as part of Francos elite division of fascist stormtroopers. That was largely due to ODuffys self aggrandisement of the military title of "General" , which he'd acquired in the free state army . Francos people had assumed that anyone with a generals title had attended an elite military academy somewhere. Not earned it in a hedge outside cavan.
Wasnt long before it went tits up for them . Although they were on the fascist side in my opinion very few of them could actually be described as fascists themselves, although some certainly were or at least had pretensions in that direction . But most would have been clueless and motivated by a sense of religious duty coupled with boredom at home.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
true
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